► “Hermes & Writing in Ancient Greece”: “Collaboration with Alan Severs”✍️:
►Summary:
♠Divided into three sections, this article revolves around three main themes: Hermes, as The Greek God of Writing and his equivalents in other cultures; Plato´s derogatory ideas of writing, amidst the prevailing Oral Tradition; and how this eventually would change, as writing became a most accepted form, when the Greeks adopted the Phoenician Alphabet.
Greek God Hermes was the equivalent of the egyptian God Thoth, and from both of them resulted a Hybrid God: Hermes Trismegistus.
Hermes´roman counterpart was Mercury.
In Norse Mythology, his Homologous figure was Odin.
Hermes and his associated figures are described in the first section.
♠The second section refers to Plato´s dialogue “Phaedrus”, emphasizing Socrates´quite negative statements concerning writing in that dialogue.
In “Phaedrus”, Plato denies the legitimacy of the written word in favour of the oral tradition. With that purpose, Socrates tells us a myth, featuring Thoth (also known as Theuth and Hermes´egyptian equivalent).
Greece’s transition to literacy, was slow, and it augmented and transformed the traditions of oral culture which had for centuries been instrumental in the handing down of certain forms of cultural knowledge.
Before the advent of writing, Greek citizens’ knowledge of their history, the ways of their gods, and the attitudes, mores, and taboos of their society were orally transmitted. This occurred not only through parent-to-child communication and transmission within a community, but also through the poetry of the bards, most notably Homer and Hesiod.
♠The third section delves into this issue, taking into account how writing effectively evolved in Ancient Greece.
As a matter of fact, Writing went through different phases, summed up as follows:
>Linear A Script: It was the written language of the Minoans of Crete, remains undecipherable.
>Linear B Script: It consists of the Mycenaean Civilization and the only partially decipherable Linear B script of Crete.
>Phoenician Alphabet: It was the alphabet of ancient Phoenicia, which first came to Greece sometime before the 8th century BCE, from whence it spread.
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►Section I. Hermes, Thoth, Hermes Trismegistus, Mercury and Odin:
Hermes was son of Zeus and one of the Pleiades, Maia.
The name Hermes appears to have originated in the word for “stone heap.”
Probably since prehistoric times there existed in Crete and in other Greek regions a custom or erecting a herma, consisting of an upright stone surrounded at its base by a heap of smaller stones. Such monuments were used to serve as boundaries or as landmarks for wayfarers. A connection existed between these simple monuments and the deity named Hermes.
Hermes had many attributes and represented many things. Hermes was the Olympian god of herds and flocks, travellers and hospitality, roads and trade, thievery and cunning, heralds and diplomacy, astronomy and astrology. Besides, he was the herald and personal messenger of Zeus, and also the guide of the dead who led souls down into the underworld.
He was also a god of science and wisdom, art, speech, eloquence. And, most importantly: “the God of Writing”.
The Greek God Hermes, as God of Writing, finds his analogue in Egypt as the ancient Wisdom God Thoth (sometimes spelled Thouth, Theuth or Tahuti).
Thoth was important in many myths of Pharaonic Egypt: he played a role in the creation myth, he was recorder of the gods, and the principal pleader for the soul at the judgment of the dead. It was he who invented writing. According to relevant sources, he wrote all the ancient texts, including the most esoteric ones, including “The Book of Breathings”, which taught humans how to become gods.
In ancient Egypt, Thoth created script. Besides, he was connected with the moon and thus considered the ruler of the night.
Furthermore, Thoth acted as an emissary between the contending armies of Horus (Egyptian God of the sky and kingship) and Seth (god of the desert, storms, disorder and violence in ancient Egyptian). Thoth eventually came to negotiate the peace treaty between these two gods. His role as a mediator between the opposites is thus made evident, perhaps prefiguring the role of the alchemical Mercury as the “medium of the conjunction.”
Both Hermes and Thoth were gods of writing and of magic in their respective cultures.
Hermes, the Greek god of interpretive communication, was combined with Thoth, the Egyptian god of wisdom, to become the patron of astrology and alchemy. In addition, both gods were psychopomps, guiding souls to the afterlife. Hermes Trismegistus may be a representation of the syncretic combination of the Greek god Hermes and the Egyptian god Thoth.
As Alan Severs says in his post “The Grammar of Magic”:
“Writing and magic have always been closely associated. The Egyptian God Thoth was thought to be the inventor of writing and the patron of every magical art. The considerable cultural contact and resulting overlap over the centuries because of conquest and trade between Egypt, Greece and Rome led to the deities Hermes and Mercury who shared many of the same attributes as Thoth before they all further blended together, creating the composite figure that was to later an immeasurable influence in the history of ideas, Hermes Trismegistus”.
Last, but not least: there is still another Egyptian parallel. Specifically, in the figure of Anubis. In classical mythology, Hermanubis was a god who combined Hermes with Anubis (given that they were both conductors of souls).
Hermes´roman equivalent, Mercury had essentially the same aspects as Hermes. He also wore winged shoes and a winged hat, and carried the caduceus, a herald’s staff with two entwined snakes that was Apollo‘s gift to Hermes. He was often accompanied by a cockerel, herald of the new day, a ram or goat, symbolizing fertility, and a tortoise, referring to Mercury’s legendary invention of the lyre from a tortoise-shell.
Another related God, given his attributes, is Odin.
Odin is a prominently mentioned god throughout the recorded history of the Germanic people, from the Roman occupation of regions of Germania through the tribal expansions of the Migration Period and the Viking Age. In the major mythological Old Norse texts, the Poetic and Prose Eddas, Odin is depicted as one-eyed and long-bearded, frequently wielding a spear named Gungnir, and wearing a cloak and a broad hat. He is often accompanied by his animal companions: two wolves and two ravens named Huginn and Muninn (Thought and Memory). As well as being the Germanic equivalent of Hermes, Odin appears to have marked shamanistic tendencies as he frequently has ecstatic visions in other realms after undergoing various trials and ordeals.
In Norse Mythology he was associated with healing, death, royalty, the gallows, knowledge, battle, sorcery, poetry and the runic alphabet. In the long Eddic, gnomic poem Havamal (The Words of Odin the High One) Odin sacrifices himself to himself by hanging from a tree (presumably Yggdrasil, the World Tree) for nine days and nine nights in order to obtain knowledge of the runes, which is suggested throughout Norse mythology as being a symbolic alphabet used for magical purposes.
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►Section II. Plato´s dialogue “Phaedrus”, in which Socrates pronounced himself in favour of the prevailing Oral Tradition and, thus, against writing:
In his dialogue “Phaedrus”; Plato denies the legitimacy of the written word as capable of conveying knowledge in any truly significant way.
In this dialogue, Socrates puts the case against writing into the mouth of Thamus, the Egyptian equivalent of Zeus.
When Thamus is presented by the god Theuth (Thoth) with the invention of writing, Thoth claims it “will make the Egyptians wiser and will improve their memories, for it is an elixir of memory and wisdom that I have discovered”. But Thamus replies:
‘Most ingenious Theuth, one man has the ability to beget arts, but the ability to judge of their usefulness or harmfulness to their users belongs to another; and now you who are the father of letters, have been led by your affection to ascribe to them a power the opposite of that which they really possess. For this invention will produce forgetfulness in the minds of those who learn to use it, because they will not practice their memory. Their trust in writing, produced by external characters which are no part of themselves, will discourage the use of their own memory within them. You have invented an elixir not of memory, but of reminding; and you offer your pupils the appearance of wisdom, not true wisdom, for they will read many things without instruction and will therefore seem to know many things, when they are for the most part ignorant and hard to get along with, since they are not wise, but only appear wise’. (Plato´s “Phaedrus”. Line 140 and following).
Walter Ong points out in his book “Orality and Literacy” [*Click here to read book] that these denunciations can by the modern reader as the same ones levelled by many against computers. This analogy is instructive because it allows us to understand in some small way the nature of the enormous change that was taking place in early Greek culture at the time of Socrates and Plato: the transition from a dominantly oral mode of transmitting knowledge to a slowly emerging literate one.
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►Section III. Towards a Literate Society: Writing in Ancient Greece:
1) >Linear A and Linear B Scripts:
Linear A (1700 BC) was the written language of the Minoans of Crete. It consists of 60 phonetic symbols representing syllables and 60 symbols representing sounds and concrete objects or abstract ideas. There is no consensus on how to translate the Linear A symbols
Linear B (1450 BC) was first studied by Sir Arthur Evans, but it was not until 1952 that it was deciphered by Michael Ventris.
Linear B is generally seen as a more simplified and less pictorial version of the earlier scripts . It is also far more cursive in its shape. The script consists of about 87 symbols, which each represent a syllable, as well as some ideograms which represent an entire word or idea. It seems that the Myceneans used writing not to keep historical records but strictly as a device to register the flow of goods and produce into the palaces from a complex, highly centralized economy featuring regional networks of collection and distribution. [To see examples of decipherments of Linear A and Linear B Minoans tablets, please visit this guest post at “The Shield of Achilles”].
2) >The Phoenician Alphabet in Greece:
The alphabet of most modern languages was originated in ancient Phoenicia (11oo BC) and first came to Greece sometime before the 8th century BC, from whence it spread. Homer’s “Illiad” and “Odyssey”, written around 800 BC, are early examples of the Greek use of the Phoenician alphabet, as are the classics “Theogony” and “Works and Days”, by Hesiod. Homer’s poems appear to have been recorded shortly after the script’s invention: an inscription from Ischia in the Bay of Naples, dated 740 BC, appears to refer to a text of the “Iliad”; and illustrations inspired by the Polyphemus episode in the “Odyssey” were found in Mykonos in 715 BC.
Herodotus claimed that the Phoenician alphabet was brought by Cadmus to Boeotia where he founded the city of Thebes.
The early Greek alphabet, based on the alphabet of the Phoenicians, was different from the linear and hieroglyphic scripts preceding it in that each symbol represents a single consonant as opposed to a syllable.
The Phoenician alphabet consisted of 22 characters with vowel sounds built into the symbols. The Greeks modified the Phoenician alphabet by changing some of the symbols as well as creating separate vowels. They also made their alphabet more phonetically correct.
By using individual symbols to represent vowels and consonants, the Greeks created a writing system that could, for the first time, represent speech in an unambiguous manner. Furthermore, while Linear B seems to have only been used for inventories and lists, the Greek alphabet was used for literary purposes. Writing became not simply a means of recording events, but also an art form in itself.
⇒Writing from right to left. Bidirectional writing. Writing from left to right:
In the earliest versions of the alphabet, the Greeks complied with the Phoenician practice of writing from right to left and the letters had a left-facing orientation.
A good example of writing from right to left is shown in the inscription on the so-called Nestor’s Cup, a clay drinking vessel of the 8th century BC, which bears a famous inscription.
The text of the inscription runs:
- Nestor’s cup, good to drink from.
- Whoever drinks from this cup, him straightaway
- the desire of beautiful-crowned Aphrodite will seize.
This was followed by a period of bidirectional writing, which means that the direction of the writing was in one direction on one line but in the opposite direction on the next, a practice known as boustrophedon.
During the 5th century BCE, however, the direction of Greek writing was standardized as left to right, and all the letters adopted a fixed right-facing orientation.
►Conclusion:
So far, we have seen that there are clear and effective similarities, when it comes to certain Gods.
Gods Hermes, Thoth (and the hybrid resulting of both: Hermes Trismegistus); as well as Mercury and Odin, they all represent similar ideas.
They all seem to be fused in an eclectic space of cultural juxtaposition, despite the cultural differences.
This could prove Carl Jung´s thesis of the Collective Unconscious. According to him, the human collective unconscious is populated by archetypes and universal symbols, shared among beings of the same species.
Worth noting that Hermes and his equivalents were mainly considered here keeping in mind their specific roles as “Gods of Writing”.
Plato was a keen defender of Oral tradition, against writing. This is evident particularly in his dialogue “Phaedrus”, in which Socrates (by retelling an Egyptian myth), states that Writing will produce forgetfulness in the minds of those who learn to use it, because they will not practice their memory.
Pisistratus (6th century BC/ 527 BC) was tyrant of Athens whose unification of Attica and consolidation and rapid improvement of the city’s prosperity helped to make possible it’s later preeminence in Greece.
Pisistratus clearly supported Oral tradition. And he did so, by specifically encouraging Dramatic Arts and Theatre. Indeed, theatre was a key technological factor of specialization in Greek culture. The choral poetry offered a fissure through which the choir was first sung until the actors took over in order to visually stage the oral poetry.
Probably, this was the most evident symptom of the transition from an Oral culture to a hybrid, semi-oral or audiovisual Culture, which dominated the fifth century BC and classicism. At last, by the end of the century, Writing prevailed.
When introducing writing, (Linear A, Linear B, and especially alphabetic writing), the Ancient Greeks privileged the visual sense against other senses such as seeing or hearing. Alongside this change, their conception of space and time was also altered, going from discontinuous to a linear, homogeneous conception. Hence, the chronological narrative and History itself arose as new types of discourses.
By objectifying words and making meaning accessible to a much longer and more intense meaning of what is orally possible, writing fostered private thought and increased awareness of individual differences.
Thus, Writing led to free initiative and creativity of the Ancient Greek society as a plural “whole”, while preserving the value of the individual forms. Such a tendency could be also considered a “call for democracy”, as a political correlate of literacy, expressivity, abstraction and individualization.
♠About Alan Severs: Alan defines himself as an occasional writer of fiction, poetry; and essays on modernism, mysticism, mythology, magic and mystery. His blog, Cakeordeathsite covers many of these and other interesting subjects. Please check it out here. Thank you, Alan! 🐬
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►Links Post:
https://http://www.ancient.eu/script/
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/lineara.htm
http://www.ancient.eu/timeline/writing/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestor%27s_Cup
https://cakeordeathsite.wordpress.com/2017/03/24/the-grammaire-of-magic/
http://www.ancient.eu/Greek_Alphabet/
http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Hermes.html
http://www.john-uebersax.com/plato/myths/phaedrus.htm
http://www.csuchico.edu/phil/sdobra_mat/platopaper.html
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You have a gift for making history come alive, dear Aquileana.
Thank you for sharing your gift (and now I’ve shared it too).
Hope this day is treating you kindly.
Big historical hugs xoxo
Hi Donna!—- Thanks so much my friend…. Your words and support are highly appreciated—- much love & best wishes. Happy weekend to you! ⭐
She does indeed!
Thanks so much dear Mitch!!! 😉 happy weekend to you! 😀
Wow, great post, full of so many details! Well done, Aquileana and Alan (the “A” team!!). I have a question about bidirectional writing. Does that mean that you would read line 1 from left to right and then line 2 from right to left OR does it mean that you slant the letters to the right side of the page as you write line 1 and then slant the letters to the left for line 2?
Also, you wrote “In “Phaedrus”, Plato denies the legitimacy of the written word in favour of the oral tradition.” Ack, my poor heart! I personally think that oral and written cultures can exist together and in fact complement one another. The oral tradition can be written down and the two can co-exist, continuing to pass down from generation to generation.
This is a must-read post! Thank you both. To the stars and beyond! xxoo
Thank you kindly Christy
Hi there CB!,
Thanks so much for the nice words here!… Mean so much to me…
As to your question concerning bidirectional writing (a practice known as boustrophedon) it means that you would write from right to left one line & the following line from left to right…
Rather than going left-to-right as in modern European languages, or right-to-left as in Arabic and Hebrew, alternate lines in boustrophedon must be read in opposite directions. Also, the individual characters are reversed, or mirrored.
You can see here a sample in English, of the style of Boustrophedon as written in ancient manuscripts in Greece (lines 2 and 4 read right–to–left):
I agree with you when you say that these two traditions should have been considered complimentary, given that they are both relevant when it comes to knowledge & culture. 😀
Your comment here is much appreciated, my lovely. Wishing you a great week. Sending love and best wishes ⭐
Thank you Aqui for replying in full to my comment. This means a lot to me! OK, now I understand about bidirectional writing. That would be difficult to do, I think, both as a writer and reader. It would have to come with a warning label for readers, hehe 😉 I wish you a great week ahead too, sweetheart. May your star continue to shine! Sending love ♥
Haha!…. I know right!?… Thank you for your question, as it helped me understand better, as well. Have a beautiful day, my lovely… Hugs! 😀 ❤
Bidirectional writing is really cool, though I can see why it fell out of usage. It would be so confusing to read! Thanks for the interesting post 🙂
Thank you very much dear Carolle… It is great to read your comment…. I couldn´t agree more with you as to bidirectional reading. I wonder which was its purpose, too? (making things harder, maybe avoiding that everyone could write/read ? 😉 ) sending love & best wishes. Happy week! 😀
Reblogged this on Lolathecur's Blog Below are two very important entries from the "Jewish Encyclopedia". Read them VERY CLOSELY..
Thank you very much for sharing!…. Sending best wishes… Happy week 😀
An amazingly intricate and captivating text. It’s fascinating to learn more about the god Hermes, often referred to in poetry as a cunning god of thievery. Thank you so much Aquileana and Alan, well done !! Please note I am at a new URL : houseofheartweb.wordpress.com
Thanks my lovely … for your visit & words…. Very happy to know that you enjoyed this post, Holly…. I love your new blog. Good upgrade!… Hope the comments issue is already fixed by now 😀 Sending love & best wishes. Have a great week!!!! ⭐
Thank you Aquileana! The comments seem to be ok…i still have a few quirks but what can I do? Such is life. Take care sweet friend. Love and hugs and wishes for a wonderful week. 🙂 🌺
Glad to read so!… I am sure everything ( meaning: those remaining few quirks) will be fine… Hugs my lovely 😀
Thank you, hoping it will be ok…have a wonderful evening lovely one. 🌺
xxoo 😘💟 good night, my friend
A love love greetings sweet and 1001 thank you and pleasant weeks duration.
I wish you. (* L *)
Thank you very much!!!.-…. Your comment means a lot… Sending love & best wishes. ⭐
Bitte Bitte !!!! gerne.
Una entrada fascinante querida Aquileana en que discubri mucho de la historia de la palabra escrita que no conocia antes. Tus investigaciones siempre son tan completas y profundas son increibles de verdad. Caroline xx 🙂
Muchísimas gracias, Caroline… es excelente leerte aquí (Y en Español!. Muy bien).
Espero que estés bien, hacía mucho que no te “veía”…. Enseguida pasaré por tu blog.
Gracias por la visita y valioso comentario. Un abrazo grande! ⭐
Brilliant, Aquileana!
These words of Socrates/Thamus/Plato really take my breath away:
“You have invented an elixir not of memory, but of reminding; and you offer your pupils the appearance of wisdom, not true wisdom, for they will read many things without instruction and will therefore seem to know many things, when they are for the most part ignorant and hard to get along with, since they are not wise, but only appear wise”
Isn’t this the state of things, especially today, with the proliferation of fake news on the internet?
Such a paradox that the invention of writing allowed humans to build upon the knowledge of previous generations, bringing us to such a high degree of technological skills and academic knowledge… but humans are nevertheless also guilty in exactly the terms expressed by Socrates/Thamus/Plato!!!
To be honest, the root problem expressed here seems more related to the quality of instruction, but there is probably great value in adding more memorization requirements into academic curricula. What do you think?
Thanks for the shoutout to my site TheShieldofAchilles.net, too, dear friend and delightful sister! Your guest post on Hephaistos is lined up and scheduled to appear shortly! Sending much love and hugs and best wishes for a wonderful week! ❤ ❤ ❤
Hi there dear Kathleen,
Sorry for the delay… It took me longer to reply as I was ill…. I am already better but still recovering (just a bad flu!, mind you but had ti take medicines etc!).
I see what you say as to how that excerpt from Phaedrus might resonate with us… Information is power somehow… But too how about much information?… what if the sources are not trustful?… Can we believe what we see or do senses deceive us, as Descartes said?…
I think that Memory is both a quantitative and qualitative attribute… Again it is important What we remember… History shouldn´t be taught as a chronological compilation of facts, I´d say…. History has to do with the Ideas and artistic expressions, right!?. At the same time, Memorization as a technique is truly important. I guess School should include more memorization requirements into academic curricula, as you say… Furthermore because once in Universities, Memory is “a must”…
On a side note, your comment reminded me of Mnemosyne, the Greek Goddess of Memory, mother of the Nine Muses and also considered the inventor of Words. It is interesting that Hermes and her seem to share similar attributes, such as Eloquence, don´t you think ?.
Will drop by your blog to catch soon… Thanks so much for your great comment here… Happy week!. sending love & best wishes! ⭐
oh, how cool! I had forgotten (lol) that Mnemosyne was the mother of the 9 muses! anyway, she, Hermes, and you, dear Aquileana, share the attribute of eloquence! Hope you’re feeling much better – love and hugs and happy week to you too! ❤ ❤ ❤
Haha!… we might forget, but Mnemosyne makes us remember 😀 … Thank you my lovely… Yes, luckily I am feeling so much better… 😀 Hugs back at you, dear Kathleen! ⭐
Aquileana, glad you’re feeling better.
I love how your posts bring out the brightest answers! Here, Kathleen, I must thank you as well, for sharing such a lovely quote 🙂
Thank you so much … Yes it was a very bad flu… 😉 So pleased to know that you enjoyed the reading… I much appreciate the visit!.
Love & best wishes 😀
Fascinating post! Plato’s opinion on how writing would erode man’s ability to remember is interesting. It makes me wonder how far from the original, the stories of Greece and the Ancient World have wandered… as in an enormous “whisper down the lane.” No one remembers perfectly and embellishment would be unavoidable. Thanks to you both for the collaboration!
The ancients had an ‘art of memory’ though I really don’t understand it. For Plato memory was a recollection of the ideal. I am tempted to write further on the subject at some point.
Hi Meg…. Love your comment. Thank you so much and sorry for the delay: I am still dealing with a bad flu …
The myth in Phaedrus is quite beautiful and it reminds us of Memory & the importance of Oral tradition … Mnemosyne was the Greek Goddess of Memory and also considered the inventor of Words… She was also the Mother of the Nine Muses…. Well, if I am telling you this is basically because Hermes & Mnemosyne seem to share many attributes, don´t you think… Socrates in Plato´s dialogues seems to be quite extreme. Thoe two traditions could be considered complimentary nowadays, I guess 😀
Sending love & best wishes. ⭐
Hi Aquileana: This is all such interesting and substantial material. Are you writing a book too? Just wondering. It’s a lot of work.
Hi Aqui, I too have wondered if you are working on a book as these are such detailed and magnificent posts. It’s helpful to see the comparisons to Odin here. My love has a thing for Norse mythology, so I like to learn what I can where I can!
My minor contribution was regarding Odin and some of the material regarding Hermes Trismegistus, Aquileana did all the heavy lifting, but I also have a thing for Norse mythology and I am always delighted to answer questions. Thanks for the lovely comments
Thank you dear Jeri… Odin´s part was written by Alan… I don´t know much of Norse Mythology, so I was amazed to find this equivalent. Hope you -and your dear one- are having good days over there 😀 Thanks so much for dropping in. Oh and I might write a book one day, who knows? 😉
Hi there dear Cynthia…. Thanks so much …. Sorry for the delay as I am sick, and just not feeling too well (bad cold, you know)… I appreciate your words and cheering as to a potential book. I´ll have to consider that!:D Sending love & best wishes ⭐
When I see the word Collaboration at the start of your posts I know I am in for an even bigger treat. But this post is amazing. The ground covered does make me want to repeat the above comment here, if you are not writing a book, you should certainly think about it. This post is so detailed and utterly fascinating.
Thanks so much dear She!!!!…. I am very happy to know that you enjoyed this collaboration with Alan…. I may write a book one day… Who knows. For the moment, blogging is “my creative window” :D… Hope your things are doing well. Much love! 😀 😉
I can’t imagine what society would of been like had words not been written, Oral yes it would allow the tradition to be passed from one to the next, but eventually that would pass and there would be no records written, I truly love reading your works Aquileana 🙂
So true… That´s why I think Socrates was too extreme in his arguments against Written tradition… very well pointed out dear Andy… Thank you very much for your words!. Have a great week …. Love & best wishes! ⭐
Thank you for always sharing with us your story of myths 🙂 I always enjoy it 🙂
❤ a pleasure…. Thank you dear Andy!!!!
^.^/
I always learn something new here, Aquileana, often many new things! I did not know Odin was the equivalent of Hermes. The class I was in, way back when, did not spend much time on Norse mythology, and I welcome the education.
I´d love to know more about Norse Mythology… It was Alan who told me that Odin was Hermes equivalent…. All new to me…. 😀
Thank you so much for dropping in and for the comment dear Lavinia… sending love & best wishes 😀 ❤
Many thanks to you and Alan for another wonderful and enlightening post.
Thank you very much! Very appreciative to read your comment…. Wishing you a beautiful week ahead!… Love xx 😀:)
Reblogged this on lampmagician.
Thank you very much for sharing my friend ⭐ Have a great week …. Love & best wishes! ⭐
Same back to you my lovely friend, I hope you’re getting better and the bloody cold has been vanished 🙂🌷❤😘
Thank you my friend… Yes, I am almost well… 😀 It was certainly a bad one! … Love across the miles! 🙂
Really interesting, had me curious about Demosthenes who came along after this. Great post by both!
Thank you very much, dear Maverick… Thrilled to read your words here…. Wishing you a beautiful week ahead!… Love xx 😀
Oh my goodness Aquileana, once you again you have my head spinning with your wonderful words and imagery – many thanks to you and Alan for an amazing post!
Thank you very much, dear Joanne…. Your visit and comment mean a lot…. Pleased to know that you enjoyed the post… Happy week ahead. Love & best wishes ⭐
Creo que comenzar alabando tu capacidad para hacer atractiva a la mitología es ya caer en un lugar común pero, visto y considerando que cada vez que te leo siento una enorme felicidad no puedo menos que empezar repitiéndome una y otra vez: me encantan tus entradas y me parece que hacen falta más blogs como éste.
Con respecto al tema has tocado un par de puntos que me son muy cercanos: por un lado Thoth o Toth es “mi” dios regente (dicho esto con toda la amplitud del significado que le corresponde a alguien que no cree en dios alguno); no sólo por ser el creador de la escritura, sino por esa estrecha relación con la luna y la noche.
Por otra parte, tu segunda parte confirma lo que siempre digo: Platón era un imbécil y más imbéciles fueron los que tomaron sus ideas para luego potenciarlas en una religión. Que era un gran escritor, no lo niego yo ni nadie; pero sus ideas eran patéticas (¡Y pensar que siguen vigentes hasta el día de hoy!).
La tercer parte me pareció maravillosa y volveré a leerla con más detalle. El lenguaje es un tema que me interesa muchísimo y este acercamiento particular a los inicios de la lengua escrita me parece estupendo.
Un abrazo y, nuevamente, gracias.
Hola Borgeano…
Ante todo, me disculpo por la tardanza… He estado enferma (en cama) con tremenda gripe…. A medida que me fui recuperando fui contestando aquí… pero indudablemente, de a poco 😀
Debo decir que coincido con vos respecto a Platón… Es que a mí me cuesta mucho leerlo sin pensar en su concepción elitista (la que sostiene en “República”) del gobierno de los sabios Filósofos. Y su descreimiento respecto al Pueblo y la democracia en términos generales.
De hecho, sospecho que todo ese planteo en contra de la escritura en “Fedro” tiene más que ver con sus valores elitistas, oligárquicos… que con la defensa de la “Memoria” como atributo intrínseco a la tradición oral. 🙂
Entiendo perfectamente lo que dices… Y coincido.
Gracias mil por pasar, leer y comentar…. Tus palabras significan mucho para mi, admirado Borgeano!… Un abrazo y muy buena semana para vos! 😉
No te disculpes, no hace falta; muchas veces no podemos responder por uno u otro motivo y eso es comprensible. En este caso, me alegra saber que estás mejor, eso es bueno (así en cualquier momento tenemos otra entrada tuya).
Lo que dices de Fedro es claro; alguien que manejaba tan bien la dialéctica y considerando que esta misma forma nos lleva, en casi todas las ocasiones a poner en tela de juicio toda idea, no puede caer en simplismos tales como querer defender la memoria con argumentos tan banales (las ideas también pueden caer en manos erróneas transmitiéndose oralmente, si vamos al caso). Coincido con vos en que es muy probable que sólo apostara a su visión elitista del conocimiento y poco más.
Cuando pienso que la historia adoptó a Platón en lugar de a Epicuro me dan ganas de inventar la máquina del tiempo para tratar de remediar el error (porque sin duda fue error, y grave). Creo que con sólo lograr ese cambio ya podríamos modificar para bien a toda la historia posterior.
Un abrazo y que sigas mejorando.
Epicuro!… gran elección… Lo que creo que ubica a Platón en un plano de alta jerarquía es su Teoría de las Ideas (base del Idealismo)… Y, por oposición a éstas el “materialismo” aristotélico…. Es interesante que Platón no haya planteado una “ética”, como sí lo hizo Aristóteles. Quizás un signo que avala lo que decíamos antes de su “elitismo”… A nivel sistemático, el corpus aristotélico es mucho más coherente y orgánico… Y escrito en prosa y no diálogos diferidos a través de un personaje auxiliar (Sócrates)… Gracias mil por tus aportes y deseos, querido Borgeano… Abrazo grande! 😀
Bonsoir ou bonjour BELLE JEUNE FILLE aquileana
Tiens je pense à toi
Aux gentils messages que tu m’apportes sur mon blog
C’est comme un rayon de soleil
Ceux-ci me mettent du bleu au cœur et celui-ci resplendit de joie
Quel bonheur que tu me donnes
Que de joie j’éprouve
Je tiens à te remercier
Belle journée ou belle soirée
Bisous Bernard Un Peu De Tendresse https://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/817109ourson.gif –
Merci beaucoup de me rendre visite cher Bernard… Comme toujours, j´aime bien ton commentaire… Bisous…. je te souhaite une belle semaine! 😀
Yes, extremely interesting! Thanks, Cheers Jamie
Thanks so much dear Jamie!!!!… Love & best wishes ⭐
I’ll keep returning to read and then re-read. Packed filled with your collaborative efforts.Well done as usual.
I am really pleased to know that you liked it… Your comment here means a lot to me… 😉 Thanks so much dear Sally… Love & best wishes ⭐
What a lot I have learned from reading this most interesting post. I hadn’t realised that Plato was so against writing.
Thank you very much dear Susan…. Thrilled to know that you enjoyed this post… I appreciate the visit and comment… have a great week ahead ⭐ ❤
Some time ago, I have written something about this topic: https://asifoscope.org/2013/11/07/gaps-of-writing/
Hello Aquileana, some time ago, I have made a blog post about the topic of writing and plato (see “Gaps of Writing” on my blog. It looks I cannot put a comment with a link here again, the commens are obviously immediately deleted, but you are going to find that article. It might be interesting for you. I think Plato (or Socrates) had a point here. Something is actually lost in writing things down.
An excellent post, dear Nannus… I much enjoyed the reading!… thanks so much for sharing!… Best wsiehs to you… have a great weekend ⭐
Thank you, the weekend is supposed to be great, but I have a terrible cold 😦
I am sick too… Since tuesday…. Awful! Hope you get well soon. (I am feeling better now, but still not completely!)
Interesting and well written essay.
I was always fascinated by the important role that Hermes Trismegistus played in Renaissance magic.
No doubt Hermes would be considered the patron god of text messaging today.
He would also serve as psychopomp to those who die and go to Hades when they lose or misplace their smart phones. :p
Haha! 😀 such an excellent comment—- The last lines made me laugh 😀 You are so witty, dear Dracul…. Truly great! 😉 wishing you a wonderful new week! ⭐
Hermes Trismegistus role in Renaissance magic and thought cannot be underestimated. I have written a related post concerning Trismegistus as the purported author of the Corpus Hermeticum and the Emerald Tablet over at my sight. Thank you for the kind comments
Thank you so much for allowing me to collaborate on this well written, informative and excellent essay. Your conclusion is stunning and I am in total agreement with previous comments that you should write a book.
Have a wonderful week and thanks again. Alan
Thank you so much dearest Alan… This post was excellent…. I am so glad that you agreed to be part of it… Cheers to you… Wishing you a great new week ⭐
Same to you Aquileana again it was my pleasure… the same to you.
Aquileana,
This was absolutely one of your best posts. I loved how you wove the similarities between the Egyptian, Greek, and Norse gods together. I was particularly fascinated with Thoth who played a role in the creation myth and was the principal pleader for the soul at the judgment of the dead. This seems so similar to judgment day in the Christian religion. I never thought the concept of writing to replace oral traditions would be so controversial. Yet now, as you indicate, we have the computers that is replacing traditional writing. The post was informative and thought-provoking. Thank you for sharing.
Best wishes,
Linnea
Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts dear Linnea… So pleased to know that you enjoyed this post…. I honestly didn´t know that Thoth was an equivalent for Hermes… Thank you for telling us more about him in your comment.
The trasition from an Oral tradition towards a Written Culture was something quite tough, by the way… At least, from Plato´s perspective. We shouldn´t forget that Plato was conservative…. And the fact that his ideal government as he described it in “Republic” was a sort of aristocracy of Philosophers.
Writing would eventually entail a homologation when it comes to access to knowledge. Thus, Plato would probably disregard these effects, being elitist as he was… 😉
Sending love & best wishes. 😉 ⭐ Happy week ahead
Reblogged this on Apollo's Raven and commented:
This is a reblog from La Audacia de Aquiles by Aquileana in collaboration with Alan Severs posted on May 29th. The article adeptly weaves the similarities between the Egyptian, Greek, and Norse gods together who equate writing with magic. Many of the concepts in the ancient civilizations are relevant today and modern day religions. Who would have thought that replacing oral traditions with memory would be so controversial. Yet now, computers are replacing traditional writing. Enjoy the informative and thought-provoking post.
Thank you very much for sharing on Apollo´s Raven… Your support is priceless!!!! 😉 much appreciated 🙂 All the best to you, dear Linnea.
As someone who stutters and who found eloquence through the written word, ptui on Socrates!
Haha!…. I will have to agree with you! 😉 Thanks so much for dropping in dear Disperser!. Love & best wishes ⭐
What an interesting and informative post Aqui…my head is spinning from the details and the names! Isn’t it true that memory becomes dim when we depend on written word? The advent of smart phones has erased all the phone numbers of our dear friends, which always sat in our memory! Yet written words have their own significance!
Thanks you dear friend for such a wonderful post. Stay blessed!
Hi there dear Balroop!… You are quite right… and the example you have provided speaks out loud …. The trasition from an Oral tradition towards a Written Culture was something quite rad, by the way… Which could be compared to The cybernetic revolution… Eventually people get used to the new paradigms…. But at the beginning it is difficult 😉
Thanks so much for dropping in and sharing your thoughts!. Love & best wishes ⭐
Wonderful post with so much information. Both of you must have work hard for this. Great collaboration Aquileana and Alan… 🙂
Thanks so much dear Mani…. We are pleased to know that you enjoyed our post. Love & best wishes ⭐
Another delightful article. You are so over my head with all of this detail, all I can do is sit b ack and enjoy.
Thank you very much dear Jacqui 😉 🙂 I am really pleased to know that you liked the post. and found it enlightening… Love & best wishes ⭐
What a fantastic look into history. Some of the logic was so interesting to learn such as Plato denying the written word for oral structure for fear people wouldn’t have to rely on their memories anymore. And learning about those different alphabets was enlightening. I supposed that’s where phonetic reading came from – read how it sounds. Great work here Aqui and Alan! 🙂 Hugs to you dear Aq! ❤ xo
Hi there dear Debbie…. thanks so much for dropping in and sharing your thoughts here… So pleased that you found this post enlightening!…
You are right: Phonetic reading comes from the Phoenician Alphabet, after the Ancient Greeks modified certain principles, such as changing some of the symbols as well as creating separate vowels, in an attempt to make their alphabet more “phonetically correct”. Wishing you a great new week! 😀
Thanks again Aqui. Always a treasure to visit your posts. 🙂 xo
A very detailed and informative post, Aquileana and Alan.
Thanks a lot for dropping by and for your comment, dear Michelle, from Alan & me. 🙂Love & best wishes! 😀
And the same right back at you. ❤
it is interesting to see how societies have evolved from oral to written (at least some of them). The way Greeks related to the written and oral forms is reminiscent of how the Celtic civilisations felt about the importance of the oral form to transmit knowledge. Thank you for sharing ! All the best, Sylvie 🙂
I remember reading Phaedrus a long time ago and wondering why Plato was so anti-writing, and how time had proved him wrong..wonderfully written as always, Aquileana. )
One could only understand Plato´s position if we see how two traditions (Oral-Written) were colliding by then (in the context of the dialogue 😉 )—- Plato´s views were not precisely democratic, anyway, right!?—- Thank you… Wishing you a great week ⭐
What a gift you have for putting together these amazing bits and pieces of history and art and legend that make it all come so alive. Love and hugs, Natalie 🙂 ❤
Thanks a lot for dropping by and for your beautiful comment, dear Natalie!. 🙂 I am really pleased to know that you liked this collaboration and thank you on Alan´s behalf as well!…. Much love ❤ 😉
My pleasure❣️😘
Aquileana a brilliant collaboration and I must commend you on the lay out of the text. I found the introduction room and synopsis at the end very helpful in following and understanding. For someone like myself who might be overwhelmed by the immense amount of information this presentation style was very effective. As others have said I always learn something here and admire your research and writing skills immensely. Perhaps I should be worshipping the god Hermes and my writing would come along! Wishing you a fabulous week!
Dear Sue…. Hi there friend!…. I am just recovering from a bad cold. Feeling quite better… But from tuesday onwards it was a struggle LOL! anyway…. Thank you so much for your comment here… Means a lot and makes me glad to read your words… Great that you found the presentation style (divided into sections) useful… I thought that it might help readers get the overall idea as well as the subjects…. And I am happy it worked.
Oh, well you may worship Hermes…. Your writing is already very good, anyway… But given that he was also considered God of Eloquence, maybe we should both do that to let creativity flow, always!!! 😀
Thank you very much for this comment dear Sue… Sending love & best wishes. Happy new week ⭐
So sorry to hear you have been unwell! Hopefully each day is better. You are most welcome and best wishes wafting across the miles to you. Xoxo
Brilliant Aquileana ! 🙂 https://youtu.be/lgci7ni37BU Aliosa 🙂
Thank you very much dear Aliosa 😀 Wishing you a beautiful week ahead! ⭐
A fascinating and well-crafted article – it’s a joy to read over and over. I’ve always been interested in the development of writing and this is a wonderful study of the subject. A great collaboration!
Thank you very much dear Annika…. I am beyond appreciative to read your comment… Happy that you enjoyed the article… Love & best wishes! 😀
Such a fascinating period of history, Aquileana.
As with anything ‘new’ comes opposition, and more importantly, though often, slow progress……
A wonderful collaboration; as only you can! 🙂
xoxoxo
HI there Carolyn!. Exactly… there is always resistance towards new things, mainly when they entail revolutionary changes in the Statu Quo… This might explain why Plato changed his own views in Subsequent dialogues 😉
Thanks so much for dropping in and sharing your thoughts!!!!. Sending Love & all my best wishes!. 😀
Thank you Aquileana and Alan – the A team as someone said earlier! Lovely to see the links between Hermes and Mdercury, Odin also. The discourse about the written word can discourage using our own memory is very interesting … A GREAT post thank you both.
Hi there Susan… Thanks so much for the visit & comment…. Absolutely pleased to know that you enjoyed this reading…. Thank you from Alan & me…. Love & best wishes ⭐
Sigh. How excellent history teacher You are Aquileana. You mentioned Thoth, very delightful, because when on 4 days Nile Cruise, I heard his name here and there on many historical sites.
Have a good day! Abrazos.
Thanks a lot for dropping by and for your beautiful comment, dear Sartenada!. 🙂 Delighted to read your words and pleased to know that this post resonated with you!: Love & best wishes ⭐
Hallo Aquileana and Alan. Susan Scott alerted me to this post and I am thankful. I enjoyed it very much, seeing mythology being analyzed in such a clear way.
Thank you very much 💫✨🌟 I truly appreciate your words, truly!…. wishing you the best!
What a brilliant and exhaustive piece of work. I wonder how many weeks of research went into this. Thanks for sharing dear Aqui. You always outdo yourself. Thanks to Alan too for this interesting and informative post.
Thank you very much dear SKD!. 🙂 I am really pleased to know that you liked the post… Your words mean a lot to me… Love & best wishes! 😀
As usual another fascinating post on Greek mythology, Aqui. I actually never knew Hermes was the God of Writing. More commonly these days I suppose we think of Hermès, the famous bag and leather brand. Hermes and Thoth seem to be a great combination, like the good guys working towards a greater common good. In this world and in life all of us are on different journeys, and it is kind of the two of them to point others the way that may be best for them.
It is interesting to read Plato wasn’t supportive of written literature. And today, his written works and quotes are incredibly reknowned. I agree with what christy said – that oral and written forms of communication go hand in hand, and sometimes something is expressed when both as used at the same time, especially when it come to more complex terms, and all of us remember things in different ways and languages.
Writing is certainly an art form, as the Phoenician alphabet and any kind of language itself. Writing in a certain direction is also interesting to know – from the English language perspective bidirectional writing sounds confusing but maybe to others it is just natural and even a faster way of reading the alphabet.
Thank you so much for writing aboug Greek mythology 🙂 ❤
Hi there linda;
Thank you very much for dropping in and for your valuable comment here…
Writing and Oral tradition could have been considered complimentary…. But Plato was probably too elitist to accept that knowledge could end up being accessible to lots of people (in the long term)…. In his book “Republic” he basically defends the idea of an philosophical oligarchy being in charge… So, it makes sense that he (through Socrates) seemed reluctant towards Writing… (In the conclusion, we highlight how writing and democracy wee related one to the other, by the way).
As always, I love your comments. my lovely!…. Wishing you a great week ahead! ❤
The sentence above about the worth of letters compared to Memory is most interesting for me. It is clear that the letters provided the opportunity and still do so to pass on through the Ages what men thought. The written text and then the Invention of the book was the key for speeding up culture and development. Nowadays one cannot imagine living without the letters. And one can see coming true the sorrows that something is harmed through this Invention, the use of Memory, internal Memory and verbal communication. Thanks for the article.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts…. I agree with you as to the importance of writing nowadays… You are right when you say that “letters provided the opportunity and still do so to pass on through the Ages what men thought”…. we wouldn´t have known and learnt about Plato if his dialogues hadn´t been put down in words!… Wishing you a great week! 😀
Reblogged this on cakeordeathsite and commented:
It was truly an honour to contribute in my small way to this excellent post of Aquileana’s concerning Hermes (and related figure: Thoth, Mercury and Odin) and writing.
The honour was mine, dear Alan!…. Hopefully we´ll team up again this year… 😀 you are an inspiration! 🙂 have a great weekend! Best to you.
Thank you Aquileana likewise and I look forward to it
Great post, where the stories of antic world are so captivating. It was a pleasure to read your blog, to find interesting informations and exquisite illustrations. Many thanks for sharing !
Thank so much dear Georgeta! 😀 I am delighted to know that you enjoyed this collaboration. Sending love & wishing you a happy weekend! ⭐
I find it very interesting that so many cultures have similar pantheons of Gods. I often wonder if there were a universal origin to these stories. Wonderfully written, Aquileana!
I agree with you: finding similar Pantheons of Gods among different cultures is completely fascinating… Thank you very much for taking time here and pleased to know that you enjoyed the post, my friend…. Happy weekend! ⭐
My mythology naiveness is showing here as I admit that I’m only familiar with Hermes, the beautiful scarves and clothing! And those I certainly could never afford! LOL! Thank you for sharing all of this amazing information.
Ha!… you are so smart… Love your comment dear Linda… Thank you very much for taking time here and pleased to know that you enjoyed the post… Sending love & best wishes 😀
So interesting, Aquileana. I like the parallels between the gods of different traditions and the speculation regarding Jungian archetypes. What was most interesting was the discussion of the oral tradition as opposed to writing. It never occurred to me that some of the most renowned scholars of the time would discredit writing in favor of oral story-telling. Memories might have been better but so much knowledge would have been lost. I’m glad Plato changed his mind!
Hi there Diana…. Thanks for your excellent comment. You are right as to how Jungian archetypes might have “specific” corrollaries (images, symbols, and furthermore: Gods /Goddesses).
Plato´s arguments against writing might seem quite irrational to us. But that´s because it is hard to think how Oral tradition might have been far more important. As time passed by, in later dialogues, he neccesarily had to revue these arguments, turning himself (and Socrates) into defenders of the written tradition.
Sending love & best wishes! 😀
I imagine the ability to read and access to books also made the oral tradition of primary importance. Otherwise only the elite would know the stories. 🙂
Both traditions might have been complimentary, I agree with you. Plato was quite reluctant when it comes to democracy, as we understand it now… Hence he was probably protecting certain interests while thinking of his government of philosophers (Plato´s “Republic”) when he harshly criticized Writing. 🙂
I love learning the different names of the gods – and realising I read such a small part of all this at school.
With today’s modern technology, it is hard to conceive of a time before the written (or texted!) word.
Thank you so much for making Ancient Greece come alive. 🙂
Thank so much dear Scifihammy!. I completely agree with you as to the importance -And hegemony!- of written word these days…. Emojies in social media could be considered logograms (as those ones from Linear B, as I wrote before in a different comment! 😉 ) …
Your support is highly appreciated!…. sending love & best wishes! 😀
Happy Sunday to you 🙂
Beautifully written and illustrated, as always, my dear Aquileana. I love the idea of a God of Eloquence. I wish we had a little more eloquence in writing. The standard of education is declining. I worked with a lady whose first language was English who could not pronounce colloquialisms no matter how many times I repeated it or made it easier to say…
Thanks so much!!!!!… I completely “hear” you…. The standards of education are certainly declining… I won´t blame texting and social media for that… But, I guess that they could be determining factors… at least to a certain point and under certain circumstances.
I like the idea of a God of Eloquence too… Makes me think of the Muses! 😀 Wishing you a great weekend & sending love
I don’t think people read enough books and feel frightened to use long or unfamiliar words. Our weekend is hot and steamy, hope yours is good too. 😍😎
Hermes, winged messenger, flies with your words and images.
It’s always nice to read your posts on greek mythology.
Thanks a lot for your words, dear Newwhitebear… It is great to “see” you… happy weekend. Sending love! 😀
happy weekend
La mitología y la historia pudo llegar a nosotros gracias al gran arte de la escritura.
Quizá sin ella no podríamos saber quienes somos ni de donde venimos.
Genial articulo como siempre.
Un abrazo.
Qué tal Sumisope… Coincido totalmente. No podría, sin embargo, haberlo dicho mejor que tú… 😀 mil gracias por pasar, leer y por tu comentario… Un abrazo!… Buen fin de semana 🙂
Sempre splendide e interessanti letture sul tuo unico blog
Buona serata e un sorriso, Aquileana,silvia
Tnate grazie cara Silvia…. Ti auguro un buon fine settimana, amica… un abbraccio! 😀 ❤
Grazie, un pensiero positivo per te!
❤ 😉 Grazie a te!!!!!
Hi Aquileana,
Another great post! I found this particularly interesting. When I was in Crete last year I got a book on the palaces and linear A and B scripts. It’s certainly interesting to see the similarities between Gods, and that each culture had one responsible for the introduction of writing. Here in Ireland, mythology tells us that the Ogham script was devised by Ogma, of the Tuatha de Danann, who were said to have lived 4000 years ago. He was also said to have been a master of the oral tradition, skilled in speech and poetry. However the earliest surviving inscriptions are on monument stones dating linguistically to 4th century AD. I think in our damp climate perhaps earlier examples may have rotted if they were written on organic materials. The first Ogham message was said to have been written on a birch branch, or bark, and there is also a link of the writing with magic: the Druids were said to have kept huge staffs carved with 8 faces, if I remember rightly, full of ogham symbols, with which they conducted their magic. I think Thamos was quite right… writing has helped us forget. I have no memory for storytelling, even though I am full of stories! 😂 Thank you for a fascinating article! 😙💕
Hi there dear Ali!. ❤
Thanks so much for your comment… a great contribution!… Interesting to learn about Ogma and how he was linked to the Oral tradition… Also to learn about the Ogham script and its first records, especially that one presumably written on a birch…. Absolutely fascinating!-.
I´d say that Socrates´account on "Phaedrus" makes much sense, given the transition from one tradition (Oral) to another one (written)… In that sense, I agree with Thamus´arguments as well!.
Wishing you a great weekedn dear Ali… Sending love! 😀
Thanks Aquileana, hope you are having a great weekend too. 😙😙😙
All of the pictograms have come back into regular use with our Emoticons 📝 to shortcut the written word, I enjoyed the similarities of alphabet and yet again another great collaboration and post, thank you 👏🏻🌸 for the information, first time I’ve ever heard of Pisistratus.
Best wishes Charlotte 🙋🏼
Dear Charlotte…. thanks so much for sharing your thoughts here… very appreciated… I am guessing that the emojies could be considered logograms (as those ones from Linear B!) …. Oh and Pisistratus was new to me too!… He certainly made a huge contribution in favour of the written word by promoting theatre!…. 😀 Wishing you a great weekend… Sending love ❤
Another wonderful post with such a wealth of information and detail. Thank-you for the introduction to Alan Severs and his blog. Hope you are having a great week, my dear Aquileana! xx ❤ xx
Thanks so much dear Clare…. Also on Alan´s behalf… delighted to know that you enjoyed our post!!!!!… sending much love & wishing you a beautiful weekend! ⭐
Thank-you! Love and hugs xx Have a good week ❤
So thorough and exquisite Aquileana 💛
Thank you very much dear Val! Wishing you a great weekend… sending love! ❤
Your posts are always stimulating!
Thank you so much! <3… All the best to you! Sending love
Hermes is one of my favorites. Partly because I’m a writer and partly because I’m interested in change and evolution. It seems to me that everything that he is a god of has to do with transformation. Communication is key to transformation, crossroads and doors, even purchasing something can be transformative.
Great to learn more about him!
So true… And the alchemists love him too, because of the same reasons you were making reference to above…. Hermes represents too many things…. Probably like Apollo… And yet, I am fond of Hermes too because of what he represents…. No wonder why he was so important during the Renaissance as well!…. Thank you so much Georgia… Loved your comment here… Happy weekend! 😀
Great post dear
Thank you so much for good sharing
Kisses
Thanks so much darling!!!! …. Kisses back at you! 😀 😉
thank you for this interesting post…
Thank you for appreciating it!… All the best to you! 😀
absolutely a wealth of information Aquileana. I was also quite interested in the various scripts shown. very detailed, I’ll have to come back to reread 🙂 have a lovely week! cheers, Debi
Thanks so much dear Debi… Thrilled to know that you enjoyed the post… Happy weekend to you too. Love & best wishes. ⭐
yes, I did indeed! wishing you a great week ahead now, Aquileana 🙂 cheers and hugs, Debi
Hugs back at you, dear Debi !!! 😀 ❤
🙂
A great article. I think your blog is fantastic!
Thank you very much!… Have a great weekend, Christopher ⭐
You too!
Isn’t it just Christopher!
Yes. Great work from both of you! x
If I understood correctly the written word was created so people no longer had to rely on memory. Seems simple but oh so complicated. An amazing contribution to mankind. Such brilliant people. Thanks so much to you both.
Yes… For Plato (via Socrates) written word would make people lazy… and they wouldn´t have to remember anything, or rely on memory… Exactly ;)Thanks so much for the visit & comment dear Gene… wishing you a great weekend! 😀
An amazing post, Aquileana – totally absorbing and full of interesting information. I particularly like the way you work through the three sections to illustrate how the transition from the oral tradition to the written word came about. It is difficult to imagine a world without writing, although Thamus’ warning that people would put their trust in the written word rather than practising their own memory is a thought-provoking one. A fascinating and thorough collaboration between you and Alan, Aquileana. Thank you both so much.
Thanks so much dear Millie… Glad that you enjoyed the post… I am pleased to know that the three sections make sense to you… Alan & I thought it could be a good way to organize the post…. 😀 I agree with you as to Thamus´s claims, mind you… even more in that context, given that these two traditions (Oral/Written) represented completely different approaches concerning learning and knowledge!… Wishing you a great weekend. Sending love ⭐
a master post
synthesizing
history & myth 🙂
Thanks a lot for your words!!!! All the best to you! 😉
I commend you on such a well-organized post, Aquileana. Interesting about the oral vs. written tradition. I can see where the written tradition could make our memory lazy, but then there is the tragedy of losing so much knowledge if there is no one around to pass down the stories. Mercury is special to me, because according to astrology, all three of my signs (birth/sun/ascendant) are in Mercury as are a few of the planets at the time of my birth. I’m not really into astrology, but it is an interesting synchronicity.
Hi Julie… you are quite right… in that comment the two traditions seemed to be opposed one to the other … Nowadays, we are able to see them as complementary… In fact, knowledge (in a technical & academic sense, would necessarily require written resources… in order to memorize!)…
Thank you so much for dropping in, friend… Love & best wishes! 😀
Here’s another one of your writes that I must bookmark to read again — a wonderful piece, Aquileana !
Thank you very much dear Chris… Thrilled to read your comment!. Have a great weekend ⭐ sending love!
🙂 🙂 I hope all is well with you, my friend ! 🙂 🙂
Doing fine… thanks Chris…. Hope you are having good spring days! xx 😀
It’s pretty hot here already- I hope your weather is milder, my friend !!! 🙂
Great collaboration as usual Aquileana, some years I wrote on the debate of Plato on the Phaedrus, the old argument of Speech Vs Writing, Plato was probably one of the first apologist for speech, disliking writing like some sort, of dead, absent, illegitimate, method that weakened memory, ironically we only know this because he put it in writing! 🙂
You are quite right!… Ironic indeed…. 😀 thank you so much for your valuable comment… Feel free to share a link to your article (if It has been posted on your blog!) … happy weekend & best wishes to you! 😀
Sorry for my late reply Aquileana, I just moved my residence 325Km. And as you can imagine that took all my energy, and time not to add, I was offline for weeks!
Here is the link to my post, where I talk about the fact that if was not for writing, we would never have heard of such debate! 🙂
HI there…. I hope the move has been successful 😉 I´ll check out your post in a while… Thank you very much for dropping in!:
Sending love & best wishes ⭐
Indeed ironic. I think that memory meant something entirely different than what we call memory, especially Plato for whom it was a recollection of the ideal world. Reading about the ancient concept of the art of memory I become aware of the great gulf that divides us from their conception of the world.
I came back.
I wrote a comment, it was actually a comedy parody play.
Donald Trump was Plato, Angela Merkel was Hermes, The Media (press corp) played the Phoenician Army, and the White House Staff was the American Revolutionary Army.
I worked on it for an hour, then clicked the wrong command and it was gone forever.
It had a Preface, a title and everything.
If I find time to rewrite it, I will mail it to you, or if soon enough, will put it in another comment.
You and Alan did a fabulous job on this article, otherwise, how could I have been inspired to write a play?
It is also a testament to all I have learned here on your blog!
Much love,
Resa xoxo
Oh… too bad that It was lost… No… I want to cry… Please, Resa… Make sure to type your comments in your email (as an Email). They saved automatically so there is no risk to lose anything…. 😉 Hope that you can rewrite it, my friend. Thank you so much for your words here and thrilled to know that you enjoyed our collaboration!… It is great to see you Resa… Much love & happy weekend to you! ⭐
WOW… what another outstanding post dear Aquileana.. A great collaboration by you and Alan..
I always learn so much.. So much here to absorb.. ” Magical” Indeed..
What I found interesting was about the writing
”
This was followed by a period of bidirectional writing, which means that the direction of the writing was in one direction on one line but in the opposite direction on the next, a practice known as boustrophedon. ”
So so interesting ALL of it dear Aquileana..
And well done to Alan too.. I will pop over to pay his blog a visit .. xx
Love and Warm hugs my friend.. ❤ xxx
Hi there dear Sue… thank so much for dropping in and for the comment…. Very appreciated. The “boustrophedon” practice was something absolutely new and unexpected to me too… I had no idea 😉 So glad to know that you enjoyed this one…. I thank you also on Alan´s behalf… Will stop by your blog soon!. Love & happy weekend to you ⭐
My pleasure and was happy to learn yet more wonders through your post.. And no worries, I know how busy you are.. So take care of YOU, and enjoy your weekend.. ❤ xxx
Nice
Thank you very much!!!! 😀 ❤
Another amazing collaboration my friend ❤ The work you put into each of your posts is simply incredible. I know everyone who reads your site appreciates it so much 🙂 Wishing you a happy weekend.
Warm wishes,
Takami
Thanks so much dear Takami… I truly appreciate your words here, my friend. Your comment means a lot 😀 Wishing you a great new week! 🙂
I found this post fascinating. The connection between Odin and Hermes was especially surprising. I’d had thought Odin comparable to Zeus.
Hello Anna, you would certainly think so, however Tacitus equates Wotan (Odin) with Mercury and this carried through into day naming conventions in English-The Roman day for Mercury became Wednesday-Wotan’s day. The day named after Jupiter became Thursday (Thors Day), probably because they were both connected to lightning. The main similarities are the writing/magic/psychopomp roles that Hermes/Mercury, Thoth and Odin shared. Thanks for the comment
Hi Anna, I know right!?…. I give the credits to Alan for that finding!. Thanks so much for droppin in and for your comment!…. Sending love & best wishes 😉
Excellent work Aquileana. I love the images you use. Take care, Micheline
Thank you very much dear Micheline…. Coming from you, it means a lot! ⭐ Sending love & best wishes!
You deserve praise. You are a gift to all of us. Our authority on Greek mythology and devoted to others.
Thank you very much dear Micheline… Means a lot to read your words… Bonne fin de semaine! ⭐
How far we’ve developed since, Plato! I knew nothing about Thoth… Must now fill in this hole in my knowledge of Gods… Goodness! Also studied Greek in my earlier years, but am completely lacking regarding the phoenician alphabet… I can’t bear it; must be going docile in my old age! Lol
Excellent sharing of knowledge with such depth, Aquileana. ♥
Hi there dear Kev…. Thanks so much…. The evolution of scripts was something quite new to me too. I didn´t know much about the phoenician alphabet and how it provided the basis to Greek writing… There is so much to learn, always, right!?…. Appreciate the comment & visit! 😀 Sending love & best wishes 😉
Excellent work Aquileana ! 🙂 https://youtu.be/cshg5ktpPtI Regards, Aliosa 🙂
Thanks so much dear Aliosa… also thanks for the clip…. I am so glad Ariana Grande could finally set up a new concert in Manchester, dedicated to all the victims! —- Love & best wishes! ⭐
Reblogged this on Spiritual Challenges.
Thanks so much for sharing, dear Stefan… Very appreciated…. Sending love & best wishes 😀
Hi Aquileana , it seems of ancient knowledge here, am I right, what would you say?
but still I choose such posts. You may be visiting http://www.wdl.org for your interest
Hi there…. Thanks so much for the visit…. I checked out the link… An interesting website…. 😀 sending best wishes! Happy weekend ⭐
You too : )
Another fascinating post Aquileana!
Thanks so much… Delighted to know that you enjoyed the post… Sending love & best wishes ⭐
Herzlichen Dank für den faszinierenden Beitrag Aquileana…
Ein lieber Gruss. Ernst
Vielen Dank, Ernst. Ich bin froh, es hat euch gefallen 😀
Herzliche Grüße!
Awesome post, cara Aquileana!
Loved the back story of Hermes equivalents. Thoth I knew about but not familiar with Germanic myths, so it was nice to learn more about the god Odin. I hadn’t read Plato’s Phaedrus, I will now go and a find a copy 😀
Headway has been made into deciphering Linear A, and you may be interested in following Richard Valance Janke blog who posts articles on the lost language of the Minoans and the Mycenaeans https://linearbknossosmycenae.wordpress.com/2017/06/05/decipherment-of-linear-a-tablet-ht-14-haghia-triada-with-john-g-youngers-errors-corrected/
Have a great weekend.
ciao
Luciana
Ciao cara Luciana… Thanks so much for dropping in and for your comment here…. “Phaedrus” is a great dialogue. It also presents the allegory of the chariot to explain the tripartite nature of the human soul or psyche. I´ll have to re-read it too! 😉 I was pleased to find so many equivalents of Hermes among different cultures -I am not sure if other Greek Gods/goddess have as many as Hermes, by the way-
I have visited Richard Valance Janke´s blog… Amazing job, particularly concerning Linear A as it is considered only particially decipherable, as far as I know … Rita Roberts has also great contents as to ancient greek scripts and other related subjecs, mainly anthropological!. (I bet you already know here. But just in case: https://ritaroberts.wordpress.com/ )… Tante grazie, amica… Un abbraccio. Buon fine settimana! ⭐
Though I knew who Hermes and Thoth were I certainly did not know the many attributes given to the wing footed messenger. Your comparisons are so interesting and I’m pleased you included Norse mythology into the symbolic mix!!
Thank you for another informative and wonderful post!
Hi there dear Cybele… Thanks so much!!!…. Happy to know that you enjoyed the reading. The comparison & analogy between Hermes and Odin was something totally new to me…. 😀 Good to “see” you… Have a great weekend! Love!, ⭐
you too!
I am a trifle late in getting here to the wealth of information your partnership offering really is, Aqui, and Alan. The quartet of Hermes, Thoth, Odin and Minerva would relate to Saraswathi, the goddess of art and learning in India’s Vedic tradition. Saraswathi is also known as Akshararoopini, Sanskrit meaning ‘one formed of Akshara or letters’. The precedence and the high store set by the spoken word is also borne out by the fact that the ancient Vedas were entirely passed down by oral tradition spanning several thousand years through guru-shishya parampara or the master-disciple tradition before it got eventually recorded in Sanskrit in palm leaf manuscripts. The term Upanishads means ‘sitting near’ to denote that same constitute teachings learnt by pupils seated near the master. Also interesting is the input on bi-directional configurations adopted by written form of different languages. With warm regards…xx
So interesting, dear Raj!… thank you very much for your comment.
I am guessing that Saraswathi sounds like the equivalent for Athena/Minerva… I can see that as well. Hermes/Mercury/Thoth were male figures for her, so the analogy is certainly accurate.
The fact that the oral tradition was so involved with the ancient Vedas is fascinating…. And the etymology of the word “Upanishads” clearly reaffirms your hypothesis-
Your comment adds many new layers of analysis to this post… I appreciate it a lot…. Sending love & best wishes! ⭐
So much to take in but all very interesting. I had to go back and re-read some parts… which would have been difficult if this was all told orally! Personally I have found that writing down events sharpens my recall rather than the opposite. We had a “story teller” in our family. Each time the same event was described a “fact” would be changed until after several decades the story would be unrecognizable! So I fear this is exactly what has happened with oral traditions.
On another note, I miss the “good old days” when we had a variety of gods to blame or thank. I have always (since a child brought up in a Christian home) been fascinated by the cultures that have a multitude of gods, or at least “sub-gods” for different events and attributes. I think it allows humans to appreciate the many elements of life rather than throwing everything in one bucket. Obviously, this interest was at odds with the rest of the family!
Thanks for such an informative and scholarly post.
Thank you very much for such a great comment… I agree with you: Oral tradition might lead to different versions of events… Memories could get easily disorted due to this… In fact, given that Plato´s ideas were quite elitist when it came to government and Hierarchies this could fit his own idea of History as a retelling of certain facts, previously chosen by a selected minor group of philosophers who would be in charge of Public issues (as we can read in his dialogue “Republic”). Call it selective revisionism, if you wish. Anyway, the main source of Oral tradition by then was Poetry.
But it still applies to it.
One of the articlesd I have used for this post precisely highlights this (Link:
http://www.csuchico.edu/phil/sdobra_mat/platopaper.html):
Check out this excerpt from that article:
“Oral tradition being mutable, mythic history may be tailored, if necessary, by successive generations to fit the changing conditions of the society. Psychological studies of human memory reinforce the view that ancient Greeks would have manipulated their orally transmitted tales; cultural, social, political and ideological values interact dynamically in a society’s collective memory to select and change what is remembered as important. Prestigious ancestors would be “most susceptible to manipulation” because of the status they conferred on their aristocratic descendents; infamous ancestors would be downplayed and eventually forgotten”…
Oh and yes, I miss the “good old days” as well 😉 I second your thoughts as to this point! 😀
Your comment is really appreciated…. Wishing you a great new week. All the best to you ⭐
E’ sempre un gran piacere soffermarsi sulle tue meravigliose pagine
Buon inizio di settimana, cara Aquileana e un saluto,silvia
Tante grazie cara Silvia… buona settimana anche a te… un caro saluto 😀 ❤
Educational, informative and beautiful as always, Amalia. Now if I could just get me a pair of those winged shoes!
Ha… I´d love to have a pair of those winged shoes as well… A “Hermes” purse would make me happy to 😀 Thank you for dropping in… Sending love & best wishes for your new week! 🙂
Yes, a purse would be a nice addition! 👛
Un bellissimo testo ricco di informazioni che ho letto con grande piacere ma anche con fatica per causa della lingua diversa.
Buona settimana da Sherazade
Tante grazie cara Sherazade. Ti auguro una bella settimana. Bacio ⭐
Grrrazie! Due 😚😚
Bonjour ou Bonsoir BELLE JEUNE FILLE AQUILEANA
La plus belle des choses que tu possèdes
Sait ce nouveau jour
Alors sois heureux ou heureuse
Aujourd’hui il est à toi
Décide toi même de ce que tu veux faire
Travail ou loisir
Ce jour vis le , emplie le , chante lui ton bonheur
Dis à ce jour que tu l’aimes et profite d’être là Pour Ce Jour
Gros bisous Bernard https://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/155602couple.jpg .
Je te remercie mon cher ami… Je te souhaite une superbe semaine, pleine de joie!…. Bisous, Bernard!. 😀 😉
Great Post, friend 🙂
Thanks so much dear Leyla… Glad you ejoyed it… Happy weekend to you, friend! 😀
Very interesting as always.
I like comparing different words in nowadays language with their origins in either Greek or Latin. I use quite frequently to recall the ancient Greek alphabet, the writing and construction of every word amazes me.
Well, looking at the beautiful statues and art created many centuries and many thousands of years before us, the fact that intrigues me most is that the way we look practically hasn’t changed. They were so ideally balanced, their bodies were ideally proportional. We are trying to achieve this by surgeries now. Isn’t that absurd?
The fact that many similar gods existed in many different cultures only proves that the idea of good was adopted in very ancient times, the main features of gods were also super-human and also similar. I do believe to some extent that gods got here from the outer space. They share the characteristics in many apart standing cultures. So, the only unifying factor is the presence of particular gods.
Hi there dear Inese…. Thanks for the great, clever comment here…
I am with you as to the reasosn why we may still admire and look up to the Ancient Greeks. It is interesting that even the two most important branches of Philosophy -Materialism and Idealism- have a greek correlate, given that Aristotle and Plato were the exponents of each one of those branches.
I liked the fact that you highlighted the possibility that ancient civilizations might have arrived from other planets. It is a sort of Recurring theme in my mind.
And not just out of the blue: how could we explain the similar Gods-Goddess, the similar colossal architecture among ancient Egyptians and Ancient Central American cultures like Mayas and Aztecs. Even the statues in the Easter Island could have been from outer space.
So many things to ponder, keeping aside Carl Jung´s theory of Archetypes and collective unconscious.
Thanks so much for sharing your valuable thoughts here… Have a great week. Love & best wishes! ⭐
As always great post!
I greet and wish you a beautiful weekend.
Thank you very much dear Marko… means a lot. Have a great week…. best to you! 😀
This is a wonderful article Aquileana. Thanks for sharing. As valuable as writing is, it can limit our knowledge and create a dependency on “expert” opinion. Oral tradition and our own experience seems to have lost its impact on our lives and our ability to listen.
Do you have thoughts on how the Greek transition from oral tradition to greater dependence on writing ultimately impacted Christianity? Christianity seems to have started with an oral tradition (supplemented by the Hebrew scriptures) and then ultimately centered itself on the New Testament writings.
Hi Dave.
Thanks so much for dropping in and for your valuable comment here.
You are right as to how the dependence on writing might have ultimately impacted Christianity. It seems the progression was the same: from Oral to Written tradition.
I can´t say the exact reasons… but I guess Plato´s Digressions as to Writing could have been considered useless, once this tradition proved to the better. Particularly in what refers to Conservation, study, homogenization and comparison of texts.
This is an interesting text which you might find interesting. It even mentions Plato in the section “The Nature of Oral Traditions”.
The Gospel: From Oral Tradition to the Written Text: http://www.bible.ca/ef/topical-the-gospel-from-oral-tradition-to-the-written-text.htm . I appreciate the visit & thoughts here, Dave. Have a great week… All my best wishes :sta:
Hi Aquileana. Thanks for taking the time to answer my question and sending the article. I enjoyed reading it. I hope you have a great week as well.
It is my pleasure, Dave. Thanks for the comments here…. I am looking forward to reading some posts on your blog and commenting soon 😀 xx
Hello dear Aquileana!
It’s so good to be back and read your fascinating posts again. Excellent collaboration with Alan. Thanks to you both. So interesting to witness how change has always been met with resistance throughout history. It’s hard for us to imagine those days of solely oral transmission of stories. However, Plato’s point is not without merit – our memory will not get enough training if we rely on written information. I also find the similarities between the four gods of different cultures and Jung’s conclusion about the collective conscious plausible indeed.
Have a great week! Cheers 😊 Irina
Hi there dear Irina.
It is great to “see” you… Hope your almost winter is being fair over there 😉
I agree with you when you say that as we read Plato´s dialogue (as presented here & when it comes to Socrates´digressions as to writing) we can “witness how change has always been met with resistance throughout history”…. It is true. I guess that his arguments could have made sense in that context. But it is also true that Plato was quite elitist and his ideal “Republic” was an utopia, according to which the wisests philosphers should rule the polis (city). Plato (& Socrates) were known for their disdain towards Democracy and the common poeple. So I am wondering if they could have also feared the possibility of writing as a democratic equalizer, as well.
I am with you as to Carl Jung´s theories concerning archetypes & Unconscious Collective.
Thanks so much for dropping in and for your great comment here. Sending love and best wishes. ⭐
Oh yes, you’re right about the possibility of Plato fearing Democracy being introduced through writing. … I imagine your winter is as mild as ours. Today is the shortest day. … I look forward to spring but not summer! Hugs 🙂
La Arqueología, Incluso Plinio el viejo ya hace 2000 años te quita la razón. Pues ya pensaba que los que nos dieron las letras eran los asirios y los Fenicios quienes la perfeccionaron, y que Mercurio y los griegos eran unos pichaflojas
http://www.historia-del-arte-erotico.com/Plinio_el_viejo/libro7.htm#192
Kissss y Kissss
En la nota (192) se dice: ” pero hay quien dice que el descubrimiento se debe a Mercurio para los egipcios (Thot asimilado), según algunos”. Evidentemente, aquí me adhiero a la disgresión 🙂 Desconocía la teoría que sostenía que los precursores habían sido los asirios, en lugar de los fenicios. Pero no soy experta en el tema… Quizás haya sido efectivamente los asirios … Gracias mil por pasar, leer y comentar… Un abrazo para vos! 😀
Awesome!!!
Thank you so much, friend… have a great day! 😀
Ciao Aquileana..un abbraccione.
Caterina
Tante grazie, cara Caterina… Un abbraccio… Felice Venerdì e buon fine settimana 😉
Aqui,
A marvelous assemblage of ancient history, myth, exploring the roots of tradition, text, anthropology, and tying all together to consider Jung’s collective unconscious. Aqui, watching your blog develop is like watcing a crystal rapidly grow into all these interesting sections and with greater precision and definition, in the offshoots, continuations, and meeting points!
Some aspects that stood out to me while reading:
I’ve often contemplated the validity of this argument for myself (text copied below – issues with ipad and getting it to highlight text – not my favorite device for writing!), and wondered about its relationship to the internet and our inability to forget any longer – collectively. Does forgetfulness not in some way influence the heart? Such as the old adage “distance makes the heart grow fonder.” How memory and proximity are related? Couldn’t we also see how forgetting begets a wisdom that only remembering, after forgetting, can elucidate? Shall we rely on the contextlessness of timelessness? I’m sorry if my questions do not make sense. Maybe too early yet to pen a response to your post, but I may miss the moment entirely.
“For this invention will produce forgetfulness in the minds of those who learn to use it, because they will not practice their memory. Their trust in writing, produced by external characters which are no part of themselves, will discourage the use of their own memory within them.”
Other notes: >>>”The name Hermes appears to have originated in the word for “stone heap.” Fascinating!
“The Book of Breathings” – this is intriguing –
Wishing you a beautiful day – always-
Ka
Hi dear Ka,
Your comment is so thought provoking…
You wonder if meory and proximity are relate and you wonder later on “Couldn’t we also see how forgetting begets a wisdom that only remembering, after forgetting, can elucidate?”… I think that memory is not necessarily related to proximity in time… We surely remember our times as students… It often happens to us that we collect the information, store it for a while … but in many cases we discard it relatively soon. (and that assuming we have studied!!! 😉 )
Feelings and sensations might last longer as Memories of experiences … sometimes as species of similar recurring feelings.
There is a beautiful book by Marcel Proust which kinds of shows how Involuntary memory works… It mostly reactivates things we once felt or lived… The novel has 7 installments (books) and as a whole is called “Remembrance of Things Past”. In the first book ( “Swann´s Way”), Proust describes an incident where he was eating tea soaked cake, and a childhood memory of eating tea soaked cake with his aunt was “revealed” to him. From this memory, he then proceeded to be reminded of the childhood home he was in, and even the town itself. This is a sort of deja vu, so to speak… This example is eloquent, I don´t think we can manage what to remeber and what to forget…. I´d say instead that Memory is a quite subjective and even quite arbitrary ability… 😉
I hope my comment is aligned with your questions… I am guessing I could have replied to them, but let me know if it is not the case, please.
Love & best wishes to you dear friend. 😀 ❤
I appreciated your reply exactly ‘as is.’ A friend of mine completed her phD in cognitive psychology with memory as focus. Maybe I’ll remember your mention of Proust when I speak with her next and see if she has read these 7 volumes you speak of here. As an “older” student having returned to school as a graduate student, it seems subjectively for me that all memory, unless retrieved via procedural memory is a bit jammed in there – and temporary. It certainly makes for maintaining blog conversations a little bit more challenging but seems to be working out okay – too. Marcel Proust, as you mention here, is fascinating and of course I will have to add to my already very long “read list.” “Childhood memory of eating tea soaked in cake” (!) I love the cake reference and the layers. A learning methodology that involves layering is best – as I discovered when I used to tutor, and now again, with myself. often I think of how relationships with people require memory – such as faces and names and a sense of continuity over time, which is why I included the notion of proximity. I love how you bring up the mental-emotional and neurologic aspects to memory. Many people rely on objects and things in order to trigger memories and maintain the love and interest in their relationships 💗 your post here is so wonderfully thought-provoking, and I enjoy your reliance on antiquity for archaeologically harvesting such brilliant discussion pieces. The fact that Plato was thinking about a world 🌎 in writing as a function that eclipses memory-making (and “knowing by heart” (another adage) may get relegated to a lower order or forgotten as a method of study. I appreciate your ending with the arbitrary nature of what gets remembered. There’s such a mysterious aspect to consciousness…
My point is that memory isn’t what is the only thing being highlighted, but I think the necessity of forgetting – as this is remembering and memory’s counterpart.
Xoxoxo
Forgetting and remembering might be two sides of the same coin… Memory (as a neurological activity) entails forgetting, putting off certain stuff in order to keep on remembering (new things). However they say that it works by layers … but it is not necessarily ordered… If you learnt a language in High School and stopped using it for a decade or so, chances are you won´t have to start over again from zero if you want to continue with that Language… at least, you ´ll learn faster than someone who has never studied that language. We forget… But not completely!— Unless, we are having certain emotional or phychological problems…
Or even neurological damage. If you have a stroke which affects certain areas of your brain… you might be able to keep on doing other things except those ones (you totally forget the contents of the damaged areas). You could read, but not write, for example 😉 Thank you so much for the comments dearest Ka… Hugs to you 🙂
Sweet! I appreciate your thoughts 🤗 xo Have a happy Sunday dear one!
Hugs xx
Hugs back at you! 😀
What an excellent reply… thank you for that one, dear Ka… Marcel Proust´s theory of Memory is based on Bergson´s work, as far as I know.
I failed to read the seven books though, but just stopped when I reached number 5…
The episode of the little cake (also known as madelien in french… a sort of muffin) is relevant as it triggers the “lost” memories, so to speak… in other installments similar mechanisms entailing “Memory” appear.
You are right as to how we might use objects to remember… Plato´s theory of knowledge also points out in that direction. It is called Theory of Reminiscence… We remember the “Ideas” because we connect with them indirectly .. via tangible objects… We recognize the Idea of Beauty because somehow we say of something or someone is beautiful…
As you can see it is a complex and vaste subject… Maybe one day, I´d speak about this, using Plato & Mnemosyne (Greek Goddess of Memory) as pretext. 😀 Big hugs to you! 😀
Bonjour Amalia,
Je te remercie pour ta visite et ton commentaire, très appréciés.
Je te souhaite une bonne fin de semaine et surtout une bonne santé !
Bisous de France. ❤
Salut Louis, je suis heureuse de lire ton commentaire… Merci de me rendre visite.
Bisous et bonne semaine 😀 ❤
Bonjour mon ami ou mon amie gentille AQUILEANA
Je n’ai aucune raison de courir
La vie me donne le temps
Soit dans le sens du vent ou à contre courant
Mais je vais toujours devant moi
Même si parfois je piétine ou je vais à reculons
Mais je réussirais et traverserais ce pont de L’avenir
Pour finalement arriver chez toi
Je te souhaite une agréable journée
Gros bisous d’amitié
Bernard https://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/741674roses.jpg .
Salut cher Bernard… je suis heureuse de lire tes belles mots… Merci beaucoup.
Bisous et bonne semaine 😀 ❤
Woahh
Hi! 😀 Thank you for dropping in! 😀
Complimenti.
Ma che caldo fa.
Buon inizio settimana.
Tante grazie… Buon inizio settimana anche a te… 😀 ❤
😉
Extraordinary work. You have a genuine admirer.Thank you Aquileana.
Thanks so much!… the admiration is reciprocal, my friend!!!!! Love & best wishes 😀 😉
Best wishes Aquileana. 🙂
I therefore conclude that you have the skill to put into writing the things that we (literature teachers) sometimea failed to write and share to our students..
Thanks so much for your words… I truly appreciate them and I am happy to know that you enjoyed it. Love & best wishes 😀 😉
This is an amazing and in-depth post. I will bookmark for future re-reading and sharing. In all my travels as a “Maia” and knowing of Hermes, I never knew that Hermes is the God of Writing…and as a writer, being Maia…this is a nice little click into place. Thank you! Very sweet and thoughtful weaving together of information and intuition and inspiration. I look forward to more. 🙂
Hi Maia (Love your name by the way!). Thanks so much… I´ll have to tell you that I didn´t know about Hermes being a God of Writing… Alan with whom I wrote this post, told me about it-. Thanks so much for dropping in and for your comment: truly appreciated it!! Great to connect and looking forward to reading more posts by you too. Love & best wishes 🙂
This post is filled with knowledge. I am so impressed.
Thanks so much for dropping in and for the feedback… Means a lot!!!…. All the best to you 😉
The “collective unconscious” turns up in religions as well. For example the ‘descending gods’ of the Mayans and the ‘holy Spirit’ of Catholicism/Christianity are both represented by birds flying head first towards earth. And before your post I associated Hermes with a fashion house more than a deity of writing. Thanks for the information.
Hi Anne, You are quite right. Collective Unconcious might appear in religions. Recurrent symbolisms could be seen in different cultures and religions.
I was just thinking of the “flood”, as there are accounts from In Mesopotamia, India… And Ancient Greece, where Deucalion was the Greek equivalent of Noah, the son of Prometheus (the creator of humankind).
Haha as to Hermes the fashion house. They nailed it by choosing that name, I think as Greek God Hermes was -firstly and above all- “the messenger of Gods”.
Thanks so much for dropping in and for your comment…. Sending love! 🙂
You are most welcome!
always brilliant and filled with story and history!! Thank you Aquileana for sharing the wonders!
Thank you very much, dear Cybele. So happy to know that you enjoyed this post… It´s always great to “see you”. Love & best wishes 🙂
you are so welcome!
Thank you for this piece. I had no idea that the Greeks resisted embracing written language when Mesopotamia and Egypt were exploring their written language inventions. I know Mercury/Hermes best from mythological stories, but also from astrology and how much the position and aspects of the planet tell us about the way a person uses language and communication. (My Mercury is on the same degree as Moon, so I’m compelled to articulate feeling.)
Plato may have been right about forgetfulness and the written word–although as a person with hearing loss, I’m dependent on the written word and struggle with retaining spoken stories. I like to read the words while I hear them.
As always, I love the images you’ve shared. I grateful for all I’m learning from this article. I need to read it a second time. Thanks again, Aquileanea and Alan Severs.
Hi there dear Elaine, thank you very much for dropping in and for your great comment here.
Hermes is one of those of those Greek Gods who represents many things… I guess his most important was that of being messanger of The Gods, and a sort of Intermediary between two worlds, so to speak…. I didn´t know that he was also related to “Writing” until this post 😉
You are right as to your points concerning Ancient Greeks being reticent as to Writing… That was more quite surely more evident when two traditions (Oral-Written) seemed to be in conflict, as Plato´s views might conclude. Later on, during 6th century BC things would definitely change 😉
Thanks again…. Sending love & best wishes 🙂
LOVE Greek history and mythology. My favorite piece of theirs is the Odyssey. Are you based in Spain?
Gracias por compartir estos datos.
Hi there…. Thank you so much for dropping in. I love Homer´s work as well… I am in Buenos Aires, Argentina, by the way 😉 have a great week ahead! 🙂
Bonjour ou Bonsoir Gentille belle jeune fille Aquiléana
Un petit passage par chez toi est une joie , un vrai régal même
Cela pour me dire que je vais bien
Quand je vole de blogs en blogs
J’en oublie mes soucis , c’est une vrai promenade
Mais avant de partir prochainement en vacances
Des vacances s’ils ont veux bien
Je tenais à te saluer te souhaiter
Tout ce qu’il y a de meilleurs pour toi ,profite bien
De même pour ta petite famille
Bisous Bernard à BIENTOT
Un peu de fraicheur https://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/763754fontaine.gif –
Bonjour cher Bernard …. Merci pour ton commentaire et amitié… Je t´embrasse fort. 😀 🙂
That’s a lot of fascinating information. I find it interesting that two great philosophers, Plato and Socrates, were resistant to change – I shall think on that.
We all tend to be reticent as to changes, I guess…. At least, most times.
Plato (via Socrates) show that reticence as to Writing, in favour of the Oral Tradition.
Despite it all, later on, Writing would become the Standardized way of perpetuating knowledge 😉
Thanks so much for dropping in dear Clowie… Very glad to read your words here. Love & best wishes 😀
Thank you Aquileana and Alan. Very impressive and wonderful food for thought. I like the way this was put …
Gods Hermes, Thoth (and the hybrid resulting of both: Hermes Trismegistus); as well as Mercury and Odin, they all represent similar ideas.
They all seem to be fused in an eclectic space of cultural juxtaposition, despite the cultural differences.
This could prove Carl Jung´s thesis of the Collective Unconscious …
I wish social sciences, well, all sciences, would study Carl Jung more.
I couldn´t agree more with you…
Carl Jung´s theory concerning Archetypes & Collective Unconscious undoubtedly carries such an irreplaceable importance. We can learn so much from him. And yet, he seems to be a little bit underrated!. Thank you so much for dropping in and sharing your thoughts dear Ashen… I truly appreciate it. Sending love & best wishes! 😉
Very informative post Aquileana♡
Thanks so much dear Tajwar…. wishing you a great week ahead… sending love 🙂
A fantastic post and full of detail. Of course, as a writer I find it even more fascinating. Thanks very much and all the best!
Thanks so much, dear Olga!…. Great to know that you enjoyed it… wishing you a great week ahead…. All the best to you, too 😀
Very well written always … I need to be back to read later again 🙂 “”as a child( school kid ) I have tried to find Ancient Greece history and myth … I saw some sculptures and just images the world used to be ….,and later I have stopped reading .. just reminds me .
I draw Hermes as well ( long long time ago…… , I have almost forgotten …).
It’s nice to read like your writing now …as a adult 🙂
Thank you very much… I am glad that you liked the post and that it even brought good memories back to you… I´d love to see your drawing of Hermes. Please send me a link of you ever find it 😀 have a great day! 😉
From some reason ( suppose for study / exam etc etc …) I just stopped drawing suddenly- but I liked a lot of imaginations with Hermes and some others — pretend to study and actually drawing .. so later , just throw away 🙂 a byway , thanks for your wonderful posts !
Oh… Yes!… I do the same with things I write… Thank you for your comment! … 😉 happy day to you! 😀
[…] « ► “Hermes & Writing in Ancient Greece”: “Collaboration with Alan Severs̶… […]
Very interesting and informative. I would have never drawn a parallel between Hermes and Odin. Might have considered a similarity between Odin’s ravens and Hermes, but not Odin himself. It’s wonderful to read a surprising new take on this material. 🙂
Thanks so much dear Cathleen!. The most well known of both Odin and Hermes is “messengers of Gods”, as far as I knew. It was interesting to find out that they were both related to Writing and Arts, as well. I really appreciate the visit & comment here…. All the best to you ⭐
Your blog posts are so much unique. I have nominated you for the most versatile blogger award.Check out the post https://thepragatimisrathoughts.wordpress.com/2017/07/31/the-versatile-blogger-award/
I would like to know more about you 😊
I will definitely check it out… I might post about this award, by the end of the year… Alongside other awards I have recently received… So kind of you to nominate me (( Sorry for the late reply!)…. Have a great weekend 😀
Wonderfully informative, and fabulously spelled-out, Amalia! 🙂 Thank you! Peace and luvz, UT
Thanks so much UT…. Coming from you, it truly means a lot. Sending love & wishing you a great week ahead ⭐
[…] […]
[…] consult Plato’s Socrates to ask if the invention of writing was a blessing or a curse, but he had a strong argument. With the oral tradition lost, and the Epic Cycle surviving only in fragments, the few details we […]
Thank you for linking back to this post dear Kathleen…. Truly appreciate it Wishing you a great weekend 😀 😉
I am grateful to have been introduced to your erudite and stimulating blog that makes me ashamed of my recent inactivity and disillusionment with the blogging process in general. I shall enjoy browsing here. Thank you for Following my comatose blog – it might wake up for a rant occasionally.
Thank you very much for such nice words…. You blog is great and I am looking forward to reading more posts over there… Glad to connect!. Love & best wishes 😀
Here is a fountain of words !!!! Wow ! Love your blog at first read , gonna read all of them !!!!!
Thank you very much… Welcome to my blog… Wishing you a good week ahead 😀
[…] Psychopomp is a god, spirit, or demon who is responsible for guiding the spirits of the dead on their journey […]
[…] Hesiod described the first created woman simply as “the beautiful-evil thing”. She was evil […]
[…] somehow related to Carl Jung’s archetypes. They are “patterns”, inherent part of the Collective Unconscious. These cards symbolise the process we go through in our lives, aiming to become a balanced and […]
Wow! A lot to assimilate. Beautifully presented also! I have always been fascinated by the Greek gods and your blog is a resource! I am definitely tucking in! I love your blog. More power to you!
http://www.kingingqueen.com
Thanks so much Jennifer… I am so happy to read your comment and to know that you also love Greek Mythology. I appreciate your words- All the best to you 😀
Salut Aquileana
Superbe blog et topics intéressants…
C’est belle passion que vous avez très chère!
Jolie photo de votre visage. Très agréable!
Au plaisir belle blogueuse.
Andreas
Je te remercie pour ta visite et ton beau commentaire. Bisous!. Bonne semaine 🙂 ❤
[…] The Magician reminds us of Hermes, the Messenger of Gods. Hermes had several attributes and represented many things. Hermes was the Olympian god of herds and flocks, travellers and hospitality, roads and trade, thievery and cunning, heralds and diplomacy, astronomy and astrology. Besides, he was the herald and personal messenger of Zeus. He was also a god of science and wisdom, art, speech, eloquence. And, most importantly: “the God of Writing”. […]
An excellent article again. I didn’t know about Plato’s reluctance to writing. Interesting. (Reading Russel’s History of Western philoosophy right now)
And the floor mosaic in the Cathedral of Sienna? I have seen it. A few years ago. Great beauty.
Buenas noches.
Saludos
B.
Thanks so much…. I was surprised to find out that Plato was not much into writing as he defended oral tradition instead. I appreciate the visit and comment. Love and best wishes to you ❣️✨
Fascinating isn’t it? It meant he and Socrates and those before could structure all their arguments mentally. And lengthy arguments! 🙂
Love back. Y buen fin de semana.
❤
Exactly… he basically claimed people would become lazy… and that involved using writing instead of Memory… happy weekend to you too ☀️⭐️✨
Gracias. Same goes now with calculators. For good or for bad. Some students of my wife’s use a calculator to multiply by 10…
That really speaks out loud 😆😀 happy week ahead 💛
Gracias. Igual