♠Plato´s Dialogue “Phaedo” (Φαίδων):
“Four Arguments to Prove the Inmortality of The Soul”:
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The dialogue Phaedo, which depicts the death of Socrates, is also Plato’s fourth and last dialogue to detail the philosopher’s final days, following Euthyphro, Apology, and Crito.
In the dialogue, Socrates discusses the nature of the afterlife on his last day before being executed by drinking hemlock. Socrates has been imprisoned and sentenced to death by an Athenian jury for not believing in the gods of the state and for corrupting the youth of the city. The dialogue is told from the perspective of one of Socrates’ students, Phaedo of Elis.
Socrates explains to his friends that a true philosopher should look forward to death. The purpose of the philosophical life is to free the soul from the needs of the body. Since the moment of death is the final separation of soul and body, a philosopher should see it as the realization of his aim. Unlike the body, the soul is immortal, so it will survive death.
Socrates provides four arguments for believing the soul is immortal.
1) →The first one, known as the Argument from Opposites, is based on the observation that everything comes to be from out of its opposite. As the body is mortal and is subject to physical death, the soul must be its indestructible opposite. Plato then suggests the analogy of fire and cold. If the form of cold is imperishable, and fire, its opposite, was within close proximity, it would have to withdraw intact as does the soul during death.
The Argument from Opposites absorbs a line of thinking that was popular among earlier philosophers such as Heraclitus and Pythagoras. By following their lead in seeing the world as being divided into opposites, Plato presents an initial argument that would be sympathetic to his contemporaries.
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2) →The second argument, known as the Theory of Recollection, asserts that learning is essentially an act of recollecting things we knew before we were born but then forgot. True knowledge, argues Socrates, is knowledge of the eternal and unchanging Forms that underlie perceptible reality. For example, we are able to perceive that two sticks are equal in length but unequal in width only because we have an innate understanding of the Form of Equality. That is, we have an innate understanding of what it means for something to be equal even though no two things we encounter in experience are themselves perfectly equal. Since we can grasp this Form of Equality even though we never encounter it in experience, this argument implies that the soul must have existed prior to birth.
The Theory of Recollection introduces the idea of Forms and, in associating knowledge with the immortal soul, suggests that the soul that survives death is not just an empty life force but includes the intellect.
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3) →The third argument, known as the Argument from Affinity or from Scattering, distinguishes between those things that are immaterial, invisible, and immortal, and those things that are material, visible, and perishable. The soul belongs to the former category and the body to the latter. The soul, then, is immortal, although this immortality may take very different forms. A soul that is not properly detached from the body will become a ghost that will long to return to the flesh, while the philosopher’s detached soul will dwell free in the heavens.
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4) →The Final Argument is known as Argument from Form of Life. Socrates explains that the Forms, incorporeal and static entities, are the cause of all things in the world, and all things participate in Forms. For example, beautiful things participate in the Form of Beauty. The soul, by its very nature, participates in the Form of Life, which means the soul can never die. The final argument based on Forms is the only one Plato deems truly definitive, refuting the doubts of Simmias and Cebes (See The Objections by Simmias and Cebes & Replies to Simmias and Cebes).
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♠Links Post:
http://www.sparknotes.com/philosophy/plato/section3.rhtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaedo
http://www3.nd.edu/~jspeaks/courses/2006-7/20208/plato-immortality.html
http://guweb2.gonzaga.edu/faculty/calhoun/courses/201s/201phd.html?lookup=aristoph.+eccl.+1
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♠Last But Not Least:
Thank You Angie for sharing the Shine on Award with me:
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Excelentes los argumentos aunque, desde el punto de vista “práctico”, absolutamente rebatibles. Eso es un “error platónico” (muy eidético). Gracias.
Eva; Sí, estoy de acuerdo, existe una notable brecha entre un silogismo perfectamente válido y la aplicación de un razonamiento válido a una situación práctica. Pero, bueno Platón es filosofía en estado puro, metafísica (y ello aunque los argumentos sean de Sócrates, lo mismo da). Un abrazo, Aquileana 🙂
Aquileana: Te felicito por tu blog, está fabuloso. Mariu!.
Muchísimas gracias por tu comentario. Saludos, con afecto, Aquileana 🙂
Excellent article.
I agree with Socrates that philosophy prepares the man for death by removing its fear.
While I like Socrates and the divine Plato, I don’t think there is an entity called a soul. That this is idea is born from the difficulty of seeing mind as brain states. It is here that the soul is created, a soul that survives the death of the individual.
Hi Makagutu…
Okay, but if there is no entity such as the one we called “soul” what is then the spirit, how do we explain our character/way of feeling?…
Maybe the idea of soul could be related with Freud´s notion of Psyke.
Does it make sense to you that way?.
Best wishes and thanks for dropping by, Aquileana 😉
Aquileana,
I don’t know what it means when someone talks about spirit. I have no idea what these are neither do I have an idea of what soul is.
Okay.. Maybe the soul is the body of the spirit..
And the spirit is the intellect , or Noûs as Anaximander called.
As you should have noticed I didn´t defined “soul”… And won´t do it…
Cheers, Makagutu, Aquileana 😉
Hi Aquileana,
You see my problem is there is no way of describing or defining spirit without making reference to things supernatural or unsupportable assertions. Maybe you could tell what spirit is without resorting to mysticism.
Regards and have a pleasant weekend
Definition of spirit: “Incorporeal consciousness”… Well maybe it is a little bit abstract… You are right that it is hard to define it without resorting to mysticism. As for instance : “The vital principle or animating force within living beings” is clearly animistic…
Cheers, dear Makagutu!, Aquileana 🙂
Cheers dear Aquileana and have a pleasant week.
Excellent post dear Amalia.
I love the quote and I agree with it.
“The soul of man is inmortal and imperishable”
Thanks for sharing with us.
Kisses and hugs. 🙂
Thanks @rotzemardini for sharing this post at twitter, Aquileana 😉
Thanks for sopping by dear Rotze. I am glad that you enjoyed Plato´s post here and I agree with you. That quote was truly amazing ,
Hugs & kisses for you too, Aquileana 😉
Excellent post Aqui! From a spiritual standpoint, the actual being (soul) is enclosed in a body (human form). When we die, there is a physical death of the body, but the soul lives on in eternity. Once again, great post sis.
Syl
Thanks @SylvesterPoetry for sharing this post at twitter, Aquileana 🙂
You’re welcome Aquileana. You always have some great posts.
Hello SYl/Poet Bro..
Yes, I share your point of view as regard to soul. I believe It is inmortal and and imperishable as Socrates said in “Phaedo”. Of course we don´t have empirical proves to bear it out but I think intuition moves us in that direction… In fact even before Christ philosopher thought the soul was inmortal so we are just following a general pattern of thinking. And that´s well enough, right?…
Hugs and hope you have a great almost weekend ahead; Aquileana 🙂
Well said. The body is a temporary housing for our soul and yes, the weekend is almost here : )
Excellent post dear Amalia.Have nice day with love Maxima!
Thanks @Maxima003 for sharing this post at twitter, Aquileana 🙂
https://twitter.com/Maxima003/status/441468815088435200
Interesting arguments by Socrates and Plato and counter arguments by Simmias and Cebes regarding the body-soul question. Philosophers play with ideas but they can’t prove anything. No one has yet provided evidence for the existence or non-existence of an immortal soul; it is a question of belief, I think, and very comforting to believe that death is not the end of life, merely the end of the mortal body, and I must confess that I cling to this belief, perhaps because it’s too frightening to imagine total annihilation.
Thanks, Aquileana, for a very intriguing post.
Have a lovely day! Cheers 🙂 Irina
Thanks @kookadim for sharing this post at twitter, Aquileana 😉
Dear Irina…
Thanks a lot for such a thoughtful and deep comment. You have perfectly highlighted the difference between a theory and a belief… As a matter of fact, I think I would be correct to say “Plato´s doctrine of the immortality of the soul” instead of “Plato´s theory”… And that is because a theory must be supported by factual evide-nce which prove the main hypothesis. Of course this doesn´t occur with Socrates´arguments . Going a little bit further I think that the same feeling of fear and anguish we all experience as regard to Death (understood as the total annihilation of Life) well… it was the same that Socrates should have experienced by the moment of Plato´s “Phaedo” as he was sentenced to drink hemlock therefore to die. So maybe at the end, we should take his arguments and objections to counter arguments by Simmias and Cebes, as an attempt to perpetuate his life “beyond death”… Well this is certainly a contextual way of seeing it..
Many hugs and it is a pleasure to read your comments, as per usual, dear Irina,
Aquileana 😉
Well that Plato had interesting arguments. I don’t want to be on the opposite end of his reasoning! He could argue me into a corner, I think. As his soul is eternal, he really could still do it… ! hehe
As for your post here, it is thought provoking and well written. I think that you are very good at summing up philosophical concepts. I do wonder if his theory was popular during his time? Did he get the backing of the people or was he considered to be irrelevant? That would be interesting to note too. I really enjoyed the read and now I am thinking/contemplating/smiling.
Love B2 (Christy)
xo
Thanks @christybis for sharing this post at twitter; Aquileana 😉
Much love xo
Okay here we we go witty girl… You are right about Plato´s soul. It wasn´t inmortal neither imperishable.. But I have a little objection: Socrates was the one who was leading the four arguments so we´d better make refernce to Socrates´soul !..
I am glad that you found this post interesting.
Earlier today I remebered a poem you have once written called ” A Poem of Thanks to Spirits That We Love”. ( http://poeticparfait.com/2013/10/10/a-poem-of-thanks-to-spirits-that-we-love/ )
I have said there in my comment that life and death were connected as “One is the beginning and the other the end so there are both part of the same process we call life”…
Finally I concluded that “when we try to figure out the purpose of our lives, we finish by discovering the relationship between life and death, by logical inclusion”…
I think that maybe that was the main reason of why Socrates tried to prove the inmortality of the soul… We had been sentenced to death “for not believing in the gods of the state and for corrupting the youth of the city”. He was probably afraid and terribly anguished so it was his own palliative way to deny death by assuming that life was meant to be prolonged beyond death… (This is a sort of emotional explanation and yet contextually undeniable)
Many hugs and thanks for stopping by,
B1 / Aquileana 😉
Thanks @adriennewarren5 for sharing this post at twitter; Aquileana 🙂
Thanks @HernandoDelaRos for sharing this post at twitter; Aquileana 🙂
Excelente entrada, que nos ayuda a comprender mejor el mundo ideal de Platón, con su toque idealista, como afirma algún comentarista. Puede que los argumentos tengan mucho de lógica, pero ‘algo’ tiene que haber: como dice tu propio lema del blog: ‘el mundo visible es sólo un pretexto’: no sólo somos células.
Chesterton -que era materialista inicialmente- es capaz de concebir algo espiritual que genere nuestra mente y nuestras ideas: frente al evolucionismo y materialismo, agudamente señala que eso de que ‘muuuuuuuy lentamente’, a lo largo de los siglos se forme la vida y la mente, exige un razonamiento de más calidad.
Tu blog contribuye a eso.
Me preocupa lo de las nominaciones del otro día, quiero corresponder: igual tengo que modificar la estructura del chestertonblog, pero no estoy muy seguro de cómo hacerlo. Gracias por tu ayuda.
Querido Chestersoc..
Muchas gracias por el inteligente comentario. Es cierto aquéllo de que no somos células . Incluso diría si bien no existen pruebas concluyentes que nos permitan aseverar que el alma es inmortal, ello tiene un principio de veracidad innegable que viene dado por el hecho de la “creencia” que la humanidad tiene respecto a ello y hablando siempre a nivel de inconsciente colectivo… O sea es válido como una hipótesis avalada “social/culturalmente”…
En cuanto al aporte de Chesterton lo tomo como un guiño en tanto es totalmente cierto… (“muuuuy lentamente”)…
Respecto a la cuestión de los Premios, tomalo como mejor te parezca… Por mi parte está todo bien. Los procesos de nominaciones tienden a generar la lógica de la cadena de bloggers, pero eso depende de en qué medida uno quiere o no adherirse. Por ende: es discrecional y relativo…
Te mando un abrazo y te deseo un buen viernes y fin de semana , Aquileana 😉
Es un buen argumento el ‘social cultural’. Pero en cualquier caso, está el problema de la demostración. Hemos acuñado un concepto de demostración de dos tipos:
-matemático, donde todo cuadra
-físico, donde la evidencia se impone.
Nada de esto sirve para la realidad del espíritu: es otro plano de realidad, la metafísica. En mi opinión, la gente ha olvidado tu lema. Y desde luego, lo asombroso es que prefieren creer en la ‘fuerza’ y la ‘energía’ antes que en Dios. Eso sí que es fe.
Buen fin de semana.
Chestersoc…
Muchas gracias por tu último comentario…
Estoy de acuerdo en que estamos demasiado apegados a lo terrenal/mundano/material…
No sé si se trata de una cuestión de dogma ateísta, sino quizás por mera comodidad y falta de interés. Como bien sabés, el Posmodernismo es tristemente apático y claramente polivalente (“Todo Vale” dijo Ilya Prigogine).
Coincido plenamente con tu “audaz” afirmación final:
” Y desde luego, lo asombroso es que prefieren creer en la ‘fuerza’ y la ‘energía’ antes que en Dios. Eso sí que es fe”.
Que tengas un excelente fin de semana, Aquileana 🙂
I always love coming over here and reading and learning so much in the process.. of my own ill educated brain.. 😉 . I happen to agree with Socrates in that I believe we are immortal .. Life after Life does go on.. and is all part of the process of why we are housed in a ‘Mortal’ body here in the physical reality as we learn to conquer emotions and grow in our ever evolving phases of consciousness…
Your posts always take my breath away at how in-depth you unravel a topic.. Thank you Aquileana… and thank you for your support 🙂 .. Sue xox
Hello Sue…
I do also “want to believe” that our soul is inmortal…
We go through different lives and that way we evolve as well in “different phases of consciousness”, as you said…
Thanks for being so keen, dear friend.
Best wishes and a happy weekend ahead for you, Aquileana 🙂
Some tweets on Plato´s “Phaedo”.
Via @DailyPlatoQuote, Aquileana 🙂
Gracias @DesireeJSosa por compartir este post en Twitter, Aquileana 🙂
I love this post for there is so much to absorb and ponder about if the souls of the living come from the dead, the soul can never die; much to consider here. 🙂
Hi DG…
Well Let´s hope it suvives… Well considered, that will be our benefit right?.
Thanks for stopping by and I wish you a Happy Women´s Day.
Many hugs, Aquileana 😉
Wishing you the same sweet friend. 🙂
Thanks for sharing this post at Twitter, Aquileana 🙂
Another terrific and thoughtful post. I’m off to ponder my soul. 😉
Hi Kourt… Wow that is certainly a valid point…
Thanks for dropping by .
I hope you have had a great women´s day;
Aquileana 😉
Te nominé. Enlace aquí http://salvela.wordpress.com/2014/03/09/1953/
Mil gracias, incluyo mención en próximo post Josep.
Un fuerte abrazo, Aquileana 😉
Congratulations on your award,this is an amazing blog,xx Rachel and Speedy
Thanks a lot for dropping by Rachel & Speedy…
Hope you have a great week ahead, cheers, Aquileana 🙂
All four arguments find parallels in other writings. Amazing that people who never met or interacted came to similar conclusions.
The words, platforms and packaging (as it were) might differ, but the themes are similar.
Peace,
Eric
P/s Sad that he had to pay with his life.
Hello Eric, Yes you are write … Different cultures have picked up the same arguments “pro” inmortality of the soul..
Well maybe there is a sort of Colective Unconscious subtly acting among us… Well Jung would to say that…
Best wishes and thanks for dropping by, Aquileana 🙂
Oh great post dear
I knew about this but your post was in great detail
I loved it
thank you dear 🙂
Ajay… Hello, how are you?…
Thanks for dropping by my friend I am really pleased to know you liked this post.
Best wishes!!! Aquileana 😉
Thank you dear 🙂
The most interesting aspect of Socrates and Plato is they have proved their theories. For thousands of years their philosophies live on, their souls continue to imbue us with questions and reasoning. Now that is immortality.
Wonderful post 😀
Luciana;
Well that is certainly a good point : Plato was the father of idealism and phenomenology owes him a good number of “ideas”, sepakingfrom the epistemological point of view…
Same way; Socrates made contributions to rhetoric, logics and ethics and became Plato´s voice in his dialogues..
Thanks for your clever comment and your blog is truly amazing…
Congratulations; cheers, Aquileana 😉
Aquileana, what a fabulous blog you have!
Thank you so much for clicking “like” on my article I wrote for Fernando over a The Talking Violin, regarding cellphone usage on planes. It meant a lot to me. xxoo, Amy
Hello Amy…
Thanks a lot for the lovely words… I am following your great blog!!!..
Looking forward to reading your newest posts…
Best wishes,
Aquileana 🙂
Yes, I saw that you are and I do believe I sent you a thank you. LOL I think. Right now I am so tired I don’t know what is up or down. I am thrilled you are following. May my blog really enrich your life with beauty, inspiration and encouragement. God knows, we can all use it, for life can really get tough sometimes. (((HUGS)))
Thanks Amy… Yes you are right, other bloggers´s post may help us as sometimes they can be an uplifting source of inspiration…
Cheers and best wishes, Aquileana 🙂
Much Love and (((HUGS))), Aquileana. xxoo, Amy
Saludos. Cambiamos de URL. Síguenos ahora en http://cultureandoenbarinas.wordpress.com
Greetings. We have changed of URL. Follow us now at http://cultureandoenbarinas.wordpress.com
Muchas gracias, te sigo en la nueva URL.
Saludos desde Argentina, Aquileana 🙂
Cada uno a su manera, ahí estamos Amalia: intentando resolver vacíos e incógnitas sorprendentes y acuciantes, con fortuna siempre frenada. Es natural proyecto, pero el resultado siempre parece detenido en el umbral de lo incompleto (ya se encargan otros filósofos de ello). Es humano superior acercarse a estas cuestiones arcanas, intimistas, y es precioso el artificio conceptual, mental, lógico, esos que nos presentan y levantaron frentes muy dotadas: semeja el esfuerzo con que un niño pequeñito toma equilibrio, o da los primeros pasos, o palabras para expresar o comunicarse. Todo eso es la fuerza de un poder que levanta admiración, asentimiento y gracia. Pero, ¿cuál nuestros alcances fijos a día de hoy?
Encantado con tu escrito, un buen abrazo a tu persona amiga.
ES cierto que nuestras capacidades para resolver cuestiones trascendentes y (arcanas, metafísicas diría es limitada.
Más aún si las cotejamos con el inmenso plexo de “misterios” e incógnitas… La retórica, la lógica.. la filosofía en un sentido amplio intentan de alguna delinear perfiles explicativos al menos desde una aproximación tentativamente coherente desde el punto de vista argumentativo. Pero el lenguaje es artificio que en este caso alude a lo abstracto, por ende nos hallamos frente a una paradoja: la del lenguaje (tecnicismo) que intenta explicar lo que excede quizás el plano fáctico. Es casi una reductio ad absurdum para decirlo en términos de falacias. Intento explicar a través del lenguaje (mera nomenclatura) cuestiones esenciales y/o que exceden la realidad netamente empírica (Dios, la existencia, el Amor… En este caso la inmortalidad del alma..)
Gracias por tu audaz comentario… Siempre es desafiante leer y contestarte a la misma altura (o al menos procurarlo)…
Muy buena semana para vos Abrazos, Al…
Aquileana 😉
Es de agradecerte siempre todo, tu agudeza fina y hasta los recomentarios extensos. No estoy en el sistema de la filosofía, pero no la desprecio: me gusta, pero suelo perderme en sus laberintos; me gusta cuando me señala unos ciertos caminos posibles y universales para transitar mejor por la vida. Al cabo estoy en ese punto escéptico, deseo que aún leve, que suele aparecer con la edad y lo vivido. Contémplame desde ese punto y no me des mucha importancia, que no la tengo y verás mi poca audacia. El lujo está patente en ti, aunque yo me esfuerzo en tus intereses intelectuales, tú me los consientes y atiendes.Es asunto relacionado mascon Amalia que con Aquileana (en llano decir y sin osadía, espero) 🙂
Todo un abrazo con mucho afecto. Al
Hola Al; Te agradezco de la misma manera con respeto por lo certero de tu comentario.
El escepticismo es, creo que, un signo de madurez intelectual… Y sino le podemos preguntar a Nietzsche o Schopenhauer…
Te mando un fuerte abrazo y los mejores deseos para la semana recientemente entrante, Aquileana 🙂
Doña: seguro que te asisten razones sobradas del sentido que trabajas acerca del excepticismo; será buen asunto y hasta devenido, pero no deja de , aportar su molesta lima; aparece con su limitación a la grácil y activa esperanza cuando el horizonte te toma y, al reducirse bre uno, un tanto te ahoga. Es aquello que solemos denominar desengaño, desencanto, pérdida de lirismo, frescura o confiaza en el vivir la vida, de la dichosa candidez misma. Naturalmente los grados en cada persona, acaso hasta el gran entusiasmo y la felicidad. Debemos intentar más bien lo apuntado final.
Bueno, Aquileana, me obligas a activar mente por caminos casi olvidados. Te lo agradezco mucho. T tanto más… jejeje…me has liberado de la molestia de importunar a tan atareados personajes con mis preguntas… jajaja. 🙂 Ganial 🙂
Pero en serio: es de agradecer tu arte de bien comunicar a distancias largas (gran cualidad) y, singularmente, en las cortas, que son distintas y más excelentes porque lo son personales. Ésta cualidad te la ensalzo de corazón, ¡vamos, hasta la desconsideración! Y es que todo te colocan sobre un pedestal de consideración y afecto. Mil gracias.
Que tu semana sea de fruto y gracia. Amalia, mi considerado abrazo, Al.
Muchas gracias por tus palabras querido Al… En cuanto al escepticismo creo que la mejor manera de combatirlo es desterrándolo.
Por otra parte considero que la versión apocalíptica de la Historia, de la Filosofía y de la Historia de la Filosofía es un camino no sólo negativo, sino reduccionista y perezosamente facilista..
Un gran abrazo, Aquileana 😉
It’s been a while since I read Plato. I loved my intro to phil class, but that’s as far as I went with it. I did however, study Greek and learned more from that…I’ll have to keep coming back for more…Brilliant blog! 😀
Thanks a lot for dropping by; Kev… Great that you have learn Greek and studied a bit of Philosophy… That´s a good point to recommence the readings…
Best wishes, Aquileana 🙂
I was able to find good info from your blog posts.Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for dropping by… Good to read your comment, Aquileana 😛
Its such as you read my mind! You seem to know a lot
about this, like you wrote the book in it or something.
I think that you simply can do with a few % to pressure the message home a bit, however other than that, this is excellent blog.
A fantastic read. I’ll definitely be back.
Thanks a lot for your kind words. Cheers, Aquileana 😉
Hello and congratulations to you too 🙂
[…] (“Socrates and the Minotaur”). In that post, he analyzed Plato’s dialogue “Phaedo” (which main topics are Socrates´death and the Immortality of the Soul) linking it to the myth of […]
Reblogged this on That Dark Alley.
Thanks for sharing this post on your blog, Aquileana 😛
Interesting, thanks for sharing! In the poem-form of “Silencing Socrates” below,
Immortality’s
Halcyon mirage
in disharmony
charms, but does not calm
one’s swallowed dualities
chased with a shot of hemlock
from the fields of dreams that tease
when experiencing shock
Cultural vultures’
cynical criticism,
cutting to the bone,
feeding on Plato’s Phaedo,
aren’t silencing Socrates…
Allegro let go
in Utopia
of the hold of hope,
choked by loneliness
In nameless memoriam
of the hill I climbed enshrined,
my soul’s reoriented
with death’s wish, my life’s disguise
…I paired this quote from the Phaedo at the end of it:
“Tell me, then, what is that of which the inherence will render the body alive? The soul, he replied. And is this always the case? Yes, he said, of course. Then whatever the soul possesses, to that she comes bearing life? Yes, certainly. And is there any opposite to life? There is, he said. And what is that? Death. Then the soul, as has been acknowledged, will never receive the opposite of what she brings. Impossible, replied Cebes. And now, he said, what did we just now call that principle which repels the even? The odd. And that principle which repels the musical, or the just? The unmusical, he said, and the unjust. And what do we call the principle which does not admit of death? The immortal, he said. And does the soul admit of death? No. Then the soul is immortal? Yes, he said. And may we say that this has been proven? Yes, abundantly proven, Socrates, he replied. Supposing that the odd were imperishable, must not three be imperishable? Of course. And if that which is cold were imperishable, when the warm principle came attacking the snow, must not the snow have retired whole and unmelted—for it could never have perished, nor could it have remained and admitted the heat? True, he said. Again, if the uncooling or warm principle were imperishable, the fire when assailed by cold would not have perished or have been extinguished, but would have gone away unaffected? Certainly, he said. And the same may be said of the immortal: if the immortal is also imperishable, the soul when attacked by death cannot perish; for the preceding argument shows that the soul will not admit of death, or ever be dead, any more than three or the odd number will admit of the even, or fire or the heat in the fire, of the cold.”
— Plato, Phaedo: The Last Hours Of Socrates
…with this photo I made to go with it all:
“And the same may be said of the immortal: if the immortal is also imperishable, the soul when attacked by death cannot perish; for the preceding argument shows that the soul will not admit of death, or ever be dead” (Plato’s “Phaedo”)~
Dear Blue Hour-Glass Poet~
I truly liked your poem in prose “Silencing Socrates” . These are my favorite verses:
1. “one’s swallowed dualities
chased with a shot of hemlock”…
2. “In nameless memoriam
of the hill I climbed enshrined,
my soul’s reoriented
with death’s wish, my life’s disguise”
I could read through your lines references to botb Plato’s “Theory of Forms”(duality Body-Soul, number 1) and Plato’s “Theory of the immortality of the Soul number 2)
The photo you added at the end is great and it reminds me of the preview of the video of the song “Morpheus” by Strict Confidence, which you had added on your comment at 21 shades …
By the way I wonder if the right side of your photograph represents your blue soul and the left one your brightest bodily shapes…
Anyhow, one thing is clear. Even if they were opposites in front of a mirror, they are the same somehow… Regardless the blue sould doesn’t need the body to exist whilst the body does!~
As to the arguments included in Plato’s Phaedo I find that the first and the second one are probably the ones that I could relate to your poems… Particularly in “Manifesto of Residue 3-2: Silencing Socrates” and “Love Lethe”
I think that somehow you included them, therefore, tacitly accepting these socratic/ platonic thoughts~!
1)The first argument, known as the Argument from Opposites, is based on the observation that everything comes to be from out of its opposite. As the body is mortal and is subject to physical death, the soul must be its indestructible opposite
2) The second argument, known as the Theory of Recollection, asserts that learning is essentially an act of recollecting things we knew before we were born but then forgot.
Yes, I believe in the indestructibility of the soul. Well, at least when I was a devout Christian, I used to for sure. Now I am not so sure. I want to believe it’s eternal. When I wrote Manifesto of Residue 3-1 and 3-2, I still considered myself a Christian. Because of my memories healing, after I thought they were lost forever, it does tend to lead me to think about the soul. When I became a Christian, I was instantly healed of an illness that had me bedridden, that was killing me, so I suppose with time I will reluctantly have to fess up to the reality of my conversion experience, and how I made a pact with God to do good with the rest of the time I have… I can’t just keep ignoring forever the trippy ways I’ve been protected from death not only when I tried to take my life and the laws of physics seemed to bend in order to preserve me, but also the times I have almost been in horrible car accidents, and my brake pedal has gone down on it’s own, or my steering wheel has turned on it’s own, keeping me out of danger. Of course, maybe my car is just one of those Transformers robots from the movies! 😛
Anyway, when I used to dwell on my mortality, and how I’ve survived a lot of things, and used to dwell on the eternality of the soul, there’s a song I used to listen to titled “The Art of Breaking” by Thousand Foot Krutch, where the lines below, looking back on, remind me of the end Plato’s Republic:
“When I feel numb I’ll let you know,
I won’t become what I was before,
You cannot kill what’s not your creation,
This is the Art of Breaking”
Here is the song for your convenience, if you are curious. As it came out in July 2005, I would have been listening to it for about a year before the brain damage, so perhaps back then, I may have actually related it to The Republic:
Your thoughts are so touching dear Ry~..
I particularly like these words:
“I made a pact with God to do good with the rest of the time I have… I can’t just keep ignoring forever the trippy ways I’ve been protected from death not only when I tried to take my life and the laws of physics seemed to bend in order to preserve me”
I am catholic but don’t go to Church or anything like that… I believe ion God but for me that doesn’t entrain to accept in an irrational dogmas. I am above all a Free thinker, so in that sense, religion and my own beliefs might collide… I try to keep them separate then because I won’t define myself as atheist…And because believing in God makes me feel protected…
The song you added here is so powerful. I like it very much! And you are right those lines you highlighted also remind m Plato’s Republic:
“I won’t become what I was before/You cannot kill what’s not your creation”.
I also like the ending lines of the song: “Are you gonna run away, and leave me here alone? ? Are you gonna run away, and leave me here?”
Okay then… By the way, I left you a comment regarding the anemone (and or the wildflower) on your post… Which one of them is supposedly involved in Adonis’ death?…
Best wishes, Aquileana 😀
I may end up having to keep some of my beliefs separate, as you do, as well!
I responded back to your comment, but I’ll say it again here, you were right, the Crimson Anemone was involved with Adonis’ death. Elizabeth Barrett Browning wrote in her poem “A Lament for Adonis”, what sounds like the Bouquet of Persephone showing up at his death though, and legend holds that the Bouquet involved the Larkspur. I updated my post to reflect this! Thanks again for correcting me!
It’s now almost 9:20 PM here, so I will have to read the posts you recommended to me tomorrow! Looking forward to it!
Best wishes!
Ry
PS
My favorite Skillet album is Collide! I haven’t heard much off of their newer albums, but I like the song you shared with me! My favorite song off Collide is “Open Wounds”, which is a very personal song to me.
~Hi Ryan~ “Open Wounds” is stunning!. Thanks for sharing!…Also thanks for the mention in the updates of your post!. I much appreciate it!
And as to the anemone vs the hyacinth issue, I left you a comment on your post “Wildflower Love: Ai Skylark Park”…
Among other stuff I found interesting that, one way or the other, (And I quote my comment there): “those two myths are related between them as Persephone raised Aphrodite’s child Adonis” (And by that the anemone is potentially included!). So, therefore, Persephone’s bouquet of Larkspurs and the anemone which was Adonis’s deathly flower are linked between them somehow as Persephone was Adonis’ surrogate mother.
Best wishes, Blue Hour Glass poet!, Aquileana 😀
You’re welcome, and thanks again!
I updated my post’s first paragraph once more to clarify the motherly and surrogate mother love these two women had for Adonis, so that it is more clear to future readers. It seems I should be more careful of my research, and not base as much about my perceptions about mythology simply on the writings of Elizabeth Barrett Browning, which I’ve realized now is not always as clear to me as I may at first think! I will double check more carefully from now on, the mythology I pick up on in her poetry, before speaking of it in future posts 🙂
Best wishes!
Ry
[…] There is also an interesting association between Memory, seen as a faculty and Plato´s theory of Ideas. Plato, through Socrates´voice, states- in the dialogue “Phaedo”- that the soul was immortal and gives four arguments to prove so. […]
I am back to read this post again after seeing it on Twitter… I remember being fascinated by the Argument of the Opposites in particular when I was in university (I took a Philosophy course). It is interesting to think that everything could come to be by its opposite.. Indeed, how would we know that which is “golden” unless we know of those times when “dawn goes down today” (Frost might believe in the argument!). Thanks for a well-penned post that I can appreciate any time of the year xx
An attribute and its opposite are two sides of the same coin … at least in the pantheistic universe (as that means “all is one”) …
From a philosophical point of view, it might be a rhetorical method to achieve “irrefutable” truths… Kant himself used the so called antinomies (Reasoning: thesis- antithesis) in his famous book Critique of Reason
Thanks so much for dropping by and sharing your thoughts CB… !😀 Wishing you a great week ahead! Aquileana🙂
[…] his dialogue Phaedo, Plato defends the world of the archetypes (Ideas/Forms) by comparing it with the sensible […]